eBay not so subtly forcing Paypal
The must-use-Paypal paragraph in its context, as captured today.

eBay forces users onto PayPal-only auctions early ... by mistake

Alex Kidman21 June 2008, 3:22 PM

eBay has banned all online payment methods except PayPal, even though it pledged to the competition regulator it would delay the decision until mid-July.


Despite an "official" line that the mandatory adoption of PayPal has been pushed back to July 15th due to the ACCC essentially telling eBay it was, to borrow an oft-used Castle line, "dreaming" when it first decided to enforce compulsory PayPal use on eBay.com.au, it looks like one side of eBay isn't talking to the other.

Specifically, if you log into eBay.com.au, the first thing you're likely to get hit with -- in this author's experience, irrespective of whether you've disabled messages from eBay or not -- is a quick notice noting the new July 15th date. All well and good and in line with the current stated company policy, you might think.

Go to actually sell something and the story is subtly different. You do still have options for direct deposit into a bank account on the initial selling page, but underneath the selling information for any auction, as the final step for reviewing your fee totals, you'll still hit the following text:

Attention Sellers:
 Attention!

All items listed for sale on eBay.com.au on or after 17 June 2008 will be subject to the following changes:

  • You must offer PayPal on your listings.

  • Pay on pick up (ie paid for when picking up the item) can be offered in conjunction with PayPal.

  • No other payment methods can be added to your listing.

A small number of exclusions will apply to these changes.



Which would seem to contradict eBay's stated July 15th date. We've grabbed the relevant screen area from a dummy auction as well, just to preserve it. Clicking through on the exceptions doesn't bring you to any page that lists the new July 15th date, either.

Certainly, you can still push ahead with a normal eBay auction with other sales options, but we can't help but think that this is eBay somewhat snubbing its nose at the ACCC's recent ruling. Well, either that, or they just don't talk to the people who do the system coding -- but surely that could never happen?

We contacted eBay regarding the issue of seemingly compulsory Paypal. eBay spokesperson Dan Feiler asserted that the issue with removing the compulsory text was limited to "only some pages" but that eBay "apologised for the confusion."

"We regret any pages where there is inconsistent information, and we're doing everything we can to correct incorrect pages, but it's a complex matter, and we can't just flick a switch to change some of them."

But wait -- there's more! APC also discovered a way to get eBay to automatically cancel your auction... for suggesting people use PayPal.

Specifically, we discovered the issue with semi-compulsory PayPal while listing an item (#120275224793, if anyone wants some old, old collectible card games... yeah, didn't think so) with the following line:

"Preference for direct deposit, then Paypal (Paypal cash only -- NO CREDIT CARD BASED PAYPAL PAYMENTS WILL BE ACCEPTED"

Which would seem to follow eBay's own guidelines -- we're not charging extra for Paypal, just not accepting PayPal payments funded by a credit card, due to the extra fees that eBay charges for CC-based PayPal payments. Critically, we've used this exact text in previous auctions (and, indeed, concurrent auctions) with no problem. Except this time, when about five minutes after the auction was listed, eBay pulled it. The problem?

According to the email we received, the use of the phrase "cash only" in the line above. Or, in real translation terms, eBay's search spider is incalculably stupid, and just cancelled an auction for suggesting people use PayPal, which would have made eBay money. Actually, eBay still doesn't lose out, as it's swallowed the auction fee in the meantime, and while we're waiting on the same automated system to get back to us after protesting this as ridiculous, our auction sits in an unsold pile with the line "Your listing does not qualify for an Insertion Fee credit based on our Relisting guidelines."

According to Feiler, not accepting credit cards (which attract an additional percentage cost on top of PayPal fees) as part of the PayPal package is, indeed, grounds for an auction to be pulled. "eBay discourages that, because it discourages buyers from using PayPal", he told us.

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Discosis (User):

The email Ebay sent said that various notices around the site may continue to show the June date and incorrect information, and that they would work on updating them. I think you encountered one of those...

Sounds to me like noone's tracking what messages they're putting on the site. Hardly professional conduct.

21 June 2008, 4:03 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Peko (New user):

eBay is quick to make changes when it benefits them but this is the get-out clause that allow them to deliberately mislead the eBay community:

"Please note that some of our onsite communications will still refer to changes taking place on 17 June 2008. These communications are being updated and should reflect the new date of 15 July 2008 within the coming days."

21 June 2008, 4:54 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Sick of eBay (User):

I think you will find this is a error that ebay have informed people about.Australia has so many options for selling now I dont know why they dont just move on if they dont like it.

21 June 2008, 4:56 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

McBanjo (User):

And eBay digs its grave.

21 June 2008, 7:52 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Guitar (New user):

From: XXXXX, XXXXX [mailto:XXXXX@iinet.net.au]
Sent: 22 June 2008 00:24
To: 'Roy, Lauren'
Subject: eBay International AG - Exclusive Dealing Notification - N93365

Dear Lauren

Contrary to ebay's undertaking to the ACCC given on 13th June that ebay will defer introduction of its PayPal only policy until 15th July ALL BUYERS on ebay are presently being advised - via a prominent screen message just before confirming their bid - that they can only pay for their purchase using PayPal. Buyers are being advised that no other payment methods are permitted.

This act of defiance by ebay is in addition to, and being implemented concurrently with, ebay's supposed technical glitch, whereby ALL SELLERS are presently being instructed to include PayPal as a payment method and exclude all other payment methods when listing items for sale. Earlier this evening I sent to you a link to a magazine article on this issue, together with a relevant transcript of my dialogue with ebay's Live help service.
As to the message being broadcast to many tens of thousands of buyers I have attached a screenshot taken this evening of ebay's Review and Confirm Bid screen, which every buyer will be confronted with when choosing whether or not to proceed. The impact of this screen should be readily apparent to the ACCC ….buyers wishing to pay by any means other than PayPal will be unlikely to proceed and yet others will be induced to apply for a PayPal account. This would seem to be a deliberate act by ebay as the financial gain for each day of such behaviour is substantial..

I respectfully request that you enquire of ebay why it is not now adhering to its undertaking to defer introduction of its PayPal only policy until 15th July, and enquire when does it propose to communicate to sellers and buyers that it does not intend to respect the ACCC's process and timeline and effectively introduce the PayPal only policy now.

Regards, XXXXX

Attach : screenshot


22 June 2008, 1:00 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Floss (New user):

Go www.bang4bucks.com.au! eBay have overstepped the boundaries, and show no respect whatsoever for their loyal sellers. As a loyal seller for 4 years I never dreamed of listing anywhere else, never had a reason to...until now. eBay have lost my respect, and my loyalty.

22 June 2008, 9:52 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Regular user):

Someone I know just bid on and won an item that specifically stated, even in the table at the bottom, that they'd take "Bank Transfer" (ebay's name for direct deposit). But when they went to "pay now" to get the bank details, it only wanted to know about Paypal.
That's pretty pathetic if you ask me.

22 June 2008, 11:04 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

charlie (User):

SMART BIDS WILL BE OPEN FOR BUSINESS APPROX 1ST JULY
http://www.smartbid.com.au/index.php?

Recommend all ebayers jump ship and sign up early
Richard Brisbane





23 June 2008, 6:55 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply
23 June 2008, 9:03 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Astro (New user):

When you log onto ebay the first thing you see is a msg from ebay saying, As of JULY 15 all items appearing on ebay must be paid for using paypal,visa or mastercard using paypal or pay on pickup. Since when the accc give them the go ahead for paypal only. If ebay want us to use paypal fine but don't make it the only payment option. Clearly ebay australia think they are above the law even after ebay in other countries gave them a big bitch slap by saying no to paypal only. NB.I have also now just received a letter from ebay stating paying via paypal or pickup only starts on July 15. How can they say this when the Accc has not said they can? I hope the Accc rule against them. Paypal maybe more secure but they are thumbing the noses at the law. Ebay have also offered $10 of my next purchase(coupon expiry date is June 27th)so I have to buy something within 4 days.Great going ebay.

23 June 2008, 9:03 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Discosis (User):

Quoting Astro:
Clearly ebay australia think they are above the law even after ebay in other countries gave them a big bitch slap by saying no to paypal only.


I'm not sure if that's the case - everything I've seen points to this as a trial for introduction in other countries.

Have other Ebays actually said no to this?

23 June 2008, 10:37 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Astro (New user):

I don't think this was a test case. From what I have read(including from Ebay) this was a Ebay Australia idea but other countries where watching to see what happened. Ebay USA is one that said no they won't do this due to the outrage it has caused here.

23 June 2008, 9:22 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Regular user):

It caused outrage worldwide, not just here.

24 June 2008, 9:19 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

charlie (User):

many Ebay users dont even go to the community and are unaware of what is happening spoke to a few friends over the weekend were totally oblivious of all the problems and recommended they check out The Round table section under the green banner on discussion Boards

Home > Community > Discussion Boards > The Round Table
ALSO
THE NEW SITE NOW STARTING ON THE 1ST JULY SMARTBID.COM.AU
http://www.smartbid.com.au/index.php?
you can sign up now ready for the start , should be quite a shock once they lose to new competition they have bought about through their stupidity and greed.
SMARTBID.COM.AU
http://www.smartbid.com.au/index.php?

23 June 2008, 11:06 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Sick of eBay (User):

Do you know what I don't understand is the following.
If you are a manufacturer and are renting a premises you get options of how you pay your rent, some Real Estate agents only allow payment by a card into their accounts, moving on, if the owner of the building puts the rent up you have 2 options consume the extra over head or move to another building.

If you are a retailer you dictate as to if you accept credit cards or eftpos and it is your right, moving on if you are in a busy street and that street dies due to there shopping options you have 2 choices, either stay where it is dead and still be paying the same rent amount or move on to where it is busier.

Internet sellers have eBay, trading post (ha ha) oztion and bang4bucks.
Now from what I can see you all have plenty of choice yet you are content to stay with a sinking ship and whinge and whine without saving your own business.

It isn't eBay killing your business it is your negative attitude and the thought of change or else maybe no confidence in yourself to build your business elsewhere?

TP is Bigpond IMO they will be no better if not worse than eBay.
Oztion have been around how long ? Years and done nothing to build the business and now they take on a partner and expect people to go running to them to save their business's. Look around Oztion is loaded with 1000's of junk listings and ridiculous prices on postage and buy now prices which means sellers have no confidence in the site and I think they had their chance and missed the boat.
Bang4bucks well who knows it is under 8 weeks old and from what I can see certain sellers are making sales most days, the only way that site will work is if people get behind it.

I have seen the most small minded and stupidest comments like I don't like the colour and I don't like the look of it and I sit back and think no wonder theses peoples businesses are dying.

What ever you do people remember you are responsible for how you run your business and how you promote yourself, if you cant work in the system don't be there.

23 June 2008, 3:04 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Regular user):

And apart from eBay, how many are well known internationally?

As a buyer, I'm in a useless situation. A search on Oztion for "Speedlite" gives me 6 results... All brand new, and 4 of which are from the same seller.
Same search on Bang4Bucks, and a total of zero results.
Now a quick search of eBay: 82 listings, consisting of accessories, new items, used items, and a range of prices.

24 June 2008, 9:31 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Sick of eBay (User):

charlie (New user – go easy on me!):
SMART BIDS WILL BE OPEN FOR BUSINESS APPROX 1ST JULY

UMM that looks like they have copied the b4b site how embarrassing, it that the site that the PS Pro told everyone about.
Gee I would want to be a little different

23 June 2008, 3:10 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

coconut (New user):

smart bid auctions looks fantastic - they just got my registration! good bye ebay!!

23 June 2008, 5:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

coconut (New user):

smart bid auctions site looks great - they got my registration! thanks to this article for letting me know! good bye ebay!

23 June 2008, 5:43 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

oziken (New user):

I have left ebay as a seller and have joined the new player http://www.smartbid.com.au/ I was a Power Seller on ebay for 5 years, but I find the changes impossible to work with. So I decided to start afresh (and GET SMART! lol) ebay use to be the only site in town but now there are a few competitors and they will create niche markets and at least provide members with service, which is sadly lacking at ebay.

25 June 2008, 8:06 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

redINKdiary (New user):

Angus, forcing a seller to have a PayPal account is just that, forcing. A PayPal account is not the only method of verifying seller ID. Oztion seems to manage just fine without it.

When anyone but particularly a seller signs up for PayPal you are authorizing PP to fine you $3K AU if they think you might have violated their TOS and to go into your bank account to get it. That could not happen with requiring a valid credit card registered to sell, you could protest the charge.

Doesn't Australia follow the 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law' legal system? If so how does PP get off with being prosecution, judge, & jury while the accused not only has no right or means of defending themselves but doesn't even get to hear about it until sentence has been carried out.

This is wrong. You need to go read the PayPal User Agreement!

Henrietta of redinkdiary.blogspot.com

25 June 2008, 10:29 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

PhilipCohen (New user):

eBay introduces absolute anonymity for (shill) bidders

In Australia, the UK, Ireland and the Philippines, eBay has obscured auction bidding to the point that genuine bidders have got absolutely no chance of detecting and thereby protecting themselves from “shill” bidding (a criminal offence in most civilized countries) by unethical vendors.

Notwithstanding eBay’s statements to the contrary, this application of absolute anonymity (ie, Bidder 1, Bidder 2, etc) by eBay on these sites serves absolutely no purpose other than to deceive consumers by making even any otherwise blatantly obvious shill bidding undetectable; and the same criticism has always been applicable to eBay’s other shill bidders’ facility, “User ID kept private”.

My concern then is not so much with the effectively bidder-specific anonymity (“a***b (N)”) now in use in the US and elsewhere (and which still allows genuine bidders some opportunity to watch for suspicious patterns of bidding on a seller’s other auctions) but with the absolute anonymity (“Bidder N”) in use in Australia, the UK, Ireland and the Philippines.

Again, notwithstanding eBay’s various pronouncements about shill bidding being banned on eBay, eBay is now, on these sites, effectively (and now knowingly) “aiding and abetting” such shill bidders to defraud consumers. …

For those of you with a longer attention span, a lengthy critical analysis of this matter appears at:
http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=6498345#6498345
I apologise in advance for the length of this linked “rant”. Needless to say eBay would not tolerate it on their discussion forums and I have spent time on eBay’s “naughty chair” for posting links to it.

If you are an unethical shill-bidding seller or a buyer who is not concerned that on the above-mentioned national sites eBay is effectively “aiding and abetting” such shill-bidding sellers to cheat you, read no further.


30 July 2008, 12:08 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Regular user):

Re PhilipCohen's comment:
Shill bidding is usually still detectable by checking the bidder's history and feedback. But yes, it is now impossible to be sure.

Another issue I had with the hidden IDs is that you have to manually check with your friends to see if you are both interested. It's silly to bid each other up on something if you are the only bidders. I bought a car off eBay and a friend down the road was also looking at it... Thankfully it was buy it now, or we'd have been bidding against each other because he didn't know I was looking at it (and vice versa) until I asked if he wanted to give me a lift to collect it.

30 July 2008, 12:35 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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