Four times the return rate for Linux netbooks compared to XP

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David Flynn07 October 2008, 5:00 PM

As MSI sees Linux netbooks returned four times more often than Windows models, Microsoft loosens its licensing restrictions on XP for netbook makers.


Linux and netbooks were supposed to be a match made in hardware heaven – a free open source operating system helping deliver low-cost mini-notes to the masses. But as the netbook market moves into the mainstream, the specs get more serious and the price tags inch higher, Microsoft is once again enjoying the fruits of its desktop-fuelled dominance.

As it is, Australia already favours Windows in the netbook space. While most manufacturers offer overseas customers a choice between Linux and Windows XP, the majority of netbooks sold locally are available only with Windows.

This includes Dell’s Inspiron Mini 9, HP’s 2133 Mini-Note, the MSI Wind and Lenovo’s IdeaPad S10 (we suspect the same will apply to Toshiba’s forthcoming NB100). Only Acer and Asus list both Linux and Windows on the menu for their respective Aspire One and Eee PC netbooks.

Even so, Acer reports that its XP-powered Aspire One represents 95% of sales in Australia according to company spokeswoman Lucy Millington. And in an interview with Laptop Magazine, MSI’s Director of US Sales Andy Tung says that the company’s netbooks running SUSE Linux are returned four times as often as the Windows XP models.

“We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven’t really talked about it much until now” revealed Tung. “Our internal research has shown that the return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of that is Linux. The return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks.”

The reason appears to be rooted in unfamiliarity with the OS, interface and perhaps even the relative complexities of locating third-party software compared to off-the-shelf Windows XP packages which the buyer may already have for their desktop or laptop.

“People would love to pay US$299 or US$399 but they don’t know what they get until they open the box” reflects Tung. “They start playing around with Linux and start realising that it’s not what they are used to. They don’t want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store.”

Tung’s observations were echoed by Gerry Carr, marketing manager at Canonical (which manages the popular Ubuntu OS). “We don’t know what the XP return rates are. But I will say that the return rate is above normal for netbooks that offer open-source operating systems” Carr told Laptop Magazine in a follow-up interview.

He endorsed the notion that buyers are not at ease with the very different look and feel of Linux. “Unclear selling is happening, typically online. The customer will get their netbook sent to their home and they imagine to find something like a Microsoft desktop, but they see a brown Ubuntu version. They are unwilling to learn it, and they were expecting to have Windows.”

Seeking to further press home its advantage, Microsoft has loosened the hardware restrictions necessary for a netbook manufacturer to load Windows XP on their system. While XP netbooks were previously limited to a screen size of 10.2 inches, the revised spec permits models with displays up to 14.1 inches – a scale which definitely pits netbooks against conventional notebooks. At least two manufacturers are rumoured to be working on netbooks with screens larger than 10 inches. Touchscreens are now also explicitly permitted.

Another limitation likely to be revised is the CPU speed, which was previously set at 1.6GHz to match Intel’s Atom processor but may need to move upwards when the Atom’s core is lifted to 1.87GHz, according to the chipmaker’s roadmap.

However Microsoft has retained an OEM ceiling of 1GB of RAM and a 160GB hard drive as out-of-the-box specs, although customers can upgrade the netbook post-sales.


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CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

This is going to make a few Linux geeks sit down and re-evaluate Linux's world domination strategies !
Even the great Ubuntu God himself is perplexed and is blaming it on unfamiliarity with the OS !
Gerry ! Try ease of use, availibility of useful apps, gaming friendliness and not having to wade through web forums and 200 page how-to books to get the wireless networking up and running.

(Flame away geeks ! And tell me how MS is dead and buried and Linux is going to rule the world within the next 50 years)

07 October 2008, 5:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
ease of use

That explains the constant stream of PCs that come into the shop I work for.

Quoting CBR1100XX:
availibility of useful apps

Again I ask... What proprietary apps are you thinking would run well on a netbook? MS Publisher? Adobe Photoshop? Perhaps a high end video editing program like Sony Vegas?

Quoting CBR1100XX:
gaming friendliness

See above comments. You're not seriously going to run anything beyond Solitaire on these things anyway.

Quoting CBR1100XX:
not having to wade through web forums and 200 page how-to books to get the wireless networking up and running

Umm. See first comment re: stream of PCs.
And show me a netbook that doesn't have working wireless under Linux... Even if you replace the distro with a different one, most are using wifi cards chosen to be supported rather than hacking support in later.

Yes you probably have some points as far as desktops, but this was an article about netbooks...

07 October 2008, 5:41 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

todd_h86 (Cornerstone member):

Quoting Tin:
See above comments. You're not seriously going to run anything beyond Solitaire on these things anyway.

Tin, on my EEEPC, I have succesfully got Vista running at a decent speed, I can play counter strike condition zero, Max Payne 2, unreal Tournament, etc just because they arent power houses that can run Crysis at max settings with no slow down doesnt mean anything. I originally bought one so I could have a 'retro' machine to play my 10 gb of DOS and early windows games on but moved up the ladder to early 2000 games.



Quoting Tin:
Quoting CBR1100XX:
ease of use

That explains the constant stream of PCs that come into the shop I work for.

Quoting CBR1100XX:
availibility of useful apps

Again I ask... What proprietary apps are you thinking would run well on a netbook? MS Publisher? Adobe Photoshop? Perhaps a high end video editing program like Sony Vegas?


What do you call 'useful'? I call a DOS prompt useful, you probably call a terminal useful but to the general public useful means they can launch it and do what they need to do, without needing to wade though pages of online forums for tutorials, also if they knew how to use Vegas or Photoshop etc they wouldnt buy a sub $800 netbook, thats just crazy talk.

08 October 2008, 9:22 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

I'll just say that it boils down to the fact that people are too familiar with XP. Nothing wrong with Linux, just if you haven't used it before, and you pick it up to try and install something first time... say Songbird for instance... it is pretty daunting...

08 October 2008, 12:36 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

"As it is, Australia already favours Windows in the netbook space."
Well since so many models are only available that way, it's kind of hard not to.

"the main cause of that is Linux."
No, the main cause is idiot users deciding that it looks different, so they can't use it. I usually wonder how these types of users cope with Vista or Office 2007... Both of which are significantly different to earlier releases.

Personally I don't give a toss which model a monkey buys, but don't blame a broad group of software for a few morons not buying what they intended to.

07 October 2008, 5:32 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

djsflynn (APC staff):

Quoting Tin:
"As it is, Australia already favours Windows in the netbook space."
Well since so many models are only available that way, it's kind of hard not to.

Actually, that's what I meant -- but obviously I didn't write it clearly enough. The intent was that almost by default we favour Windows over Linux due to the vendors making that choice for buyers.




07 October 2008, 5:49 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

todd_h86 (Cornerstone member):

Quoting Tin:
Personally I don't give a toss which model a monkey buys, but don't blame a broad group of software for a few morons not buying what they intended to.


Ok, so that means there are 4 times fewer morons returning the Windows version of the netbooks... gee linux is sticking it to Microsoft and its moronic fan boys..... In this case FEWER numbers (returns) is better as opposed to MORE (Users) being better..

08 October 2008, 9:28 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

The Penguin (Cornerstone member):

Quoting Tin:
"As it is, Australia already favours Windows in the netbook space."

We do?

11 October 2008, 1:01 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

You don't know how long I've laid in bed at night dreaming about a story like this ..... Hee hee !
Even the Linux geeks know it's limited appeal to the average user, it's just they won't admit it !
And on the contrary, Tin, I think these doofus's who have read all the anti-MS hype on forums like this one deserve all they get.
You see, when 20 people stand up and advise you to move to Linux because it's computing Nirvana, the ones who take this advice don't realise that the people advocating a shift to Linux are actually mega-savvy IT gurus and not 'average' users.
It's good to see that once in a blue moon, it's not MS copping a mouthful.

Now what can we dig up on OSX :)

07 October 2008, 5:42 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Quoting Me In Oz:
You don't know how long I've laid in bed at night dreaming about a story like this ..... Hee hee !


Uh...I'll leave that one alone ;)

07 October 2008, 9:05 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
You don't know how long I've laid in bed at night dreaming about a story like this .....

A long time between drinks when it comes to finding flaws in open source huh.


The problem is that the returns statistic is just meaningless, you'd probably find a similar statistic for iPhone. Well you would if it wasn't for Apple's draconian trade practices.

So lets see, underpowered machine, unfamiliar OS and unrealistic expectations, now there is a recipe for an upset early adopter. The windows models of similar machines invariably feature more RAM HDD and CPU, so you'd have to compare apples with apples for any sort of useful comparison.

The insurance industry often comes up with similar gems, citing the Sang-Yong ye-haw as the safest vehicle on Australian roads because it rarely appears on their claim forms.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Tin, I think these doofus's who have read all the anti-MS hype on forums like this one deserve all they get.

But it looks like from a less rose coloured angle that it was all the doofus's in this case were windophiles who got out of their depth buying a product they did not understand to solve a problem they did not have.

While I see MS placing hardware limitations as foul play, I have to agree with comment YAG made in another thread along the lines of where does it end. We already seeing the netbooks muscle up and before long they will be totally indistinguishable form notebooks and we'll wonder what the fuss was all about.


Quoting Me In Oz:
It's good to see that once in a blue moon, it's not MS copping a mouthful.

You know there is a big difference between being dissatisfied with Windows and being dissatisfied with Linux one hasn't cost you hundreds.

Quoting Me In Oz:
because it's computing Nirvana, the ones who take this advice don't realise that the people advocating a shift to Linux are actually mega-savvy IT gurus and not 'average' users.

So if you want an average or below average OS it's best to get your advice at supermarkets and service stations? I thank you for so accurately explaining the knowledge gap. :>



07 October 2008, 9:10 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
You know there is a big difference between being dissatisfied with Windows and being dissatisfied with Linux one hasn't cost you hundreds.

The Linux geeks draw this argument out like a pistol !
I said before and I'll say it til I'm pushing daisies !
"Just because it's FREE does not mean it's GOOD !" and
"Just because it's FREE does not mean that it's immune to criticism !"
"Just because it's FREE does not mean that every user should be left to their devices requiring days, if not weeks, to get a distro up and running (read NO SUPPORT ... and countless forums and blogs DON't count !)

Quoting Raindog:
So if you want an average or below average OS it's best to get your advice at supermarkets and service stations? I thank you for so accurately explaining the knowledge gap.

Your clients are lucky to have you as a mega-savvy IT guru, but most of the computer users out here do not have that luxury and are thus at the mercy of OEM support, of which Linux has practically nil !




08 October 2008, 12:01 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
The Linux geeks draw this argument out like a pistol !

I don't know, you would have to ask one if it is in fact the case.


Quoting Me In Oz:
I said before and I'll say it til I'm pushing daisies !

That doesn't make it correct.


Quoting Me In Oz:
"Just because it's FREE does not mean it's GOOD !"

Agreed! But then Linux is free and is good, it offers strength the commercial OS's do not, and it has weaknesses just like the expensive commercial packages.


Quoting Me In Oz:
"Just because it's FREE does not mean that it's immune to criticism !"

Indeed! And constructive criticism is a good thing and something Linux development thrives on. But when something is free from a purchase price, the criticism should become more like bug reports and feature requests. When you have shelled out large wads of cash for an OS your are well within your rights to bitch long and loud when it does not perform.


Quoting Me In Oz:
"Just because it's FREE does not mean that every user should be left to their devices requiring days, if not weeks, to get a distro up and running

This is simply a popular myth, most modern Linux builds will load, format and be running in less than half the time of their Windows equivalents on common hardware.
Sure there are those with issues getting support of specific pieces of hardware under Linux, but tell me if you will how this differs from those who have specific hardware issues under Vista?


Quoting Me In Oz:
read NO SUPPORT ... and countless forums and blogs DON't count !

Why don't they count? There is a wealth of information freely available, and anyone with a reasonable attitude can gain Linux support.
And since you are pitching this at a consumer level what Windows support is actually available to the average consumer? Some smarmy help lines in a range of languages (English being the notable exclusion).


Quoting Me In Oz:
Your clients are lucky to have you as a mega-savvy IT guru

If they keep coming back they must believe that too.


Quoting Me In Oz:
but most of the computer users out here do not have that luxury

Realistically they do not have the luxury of affordable Windows support either.


Quoting Me In Oz:
and are thus at the mercy of OEM support, of which Linux has practically nil !

That may have been true in 1997, I doubt you have looked lately, and if you choose to ignore all the 3rd party offerings such as forums and websites then you choose to remain unsupported.

Back on topic, I'd suggest the majority of netbook returns were from those dissatisfied with Windows and looking for alternative, and yet expecting it to be windows. The same users would be equally dissatisfied with OS-X unless they are prepared to revise their thinking. Closed attitudes are not the fault of the OS.

The low price tags (along with the associated low performance) of netbooks has enabled a whole new legion of dreamers to get themselves out of their depths with an area of computing they neither need nor understand. An OS is a tool and like any tool it is useless until the operator takes the time to learn how to use it. You'd be equally troubled by a cordless drill if you expected it to behave in the same manner as a brace and bit, and yet both devices achieve the same task.




08 October 2008, 8:56 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

This site would be so boring if you weren't on board Raindog ! (i'm serious) !
Quoting Raindog:
I don't know, you would have to ask one if it is in fact the case.

It was your post !



Quoting Raindog:
Agreed! But then Linux is free and is good, it offers strength the commercial OS's do not, and it has weaknesses just like the expensive commercial packages.

I concur ! But the most of the Linux geeks won't admit it ! So it's up to conscientious objectors like us to remind them ;)

Quoting Raindog:
But when something is free from a purchase price, the criticism should become more like bug reports and feature requests

Why ? And why is this not extended to purchased products (lets keep in mind that these netbooks were purchased and not FREE). So when MS products have a 'bug' suddenly it's a complaint and not a 'bug' report ?


Quoting Raindog:
This is simply a popular myth

That's pretty presumptous !
My experiences with Ubuntu 7.04 was nothing short of a nightmare. Is it too much to ask in the 21st century to be able to set up a wireless network, a SB soundcard and TV tuner ? ... I'm sure there are thousands who have had similar issues !

Quoting Raindog:
but tell me if you will how this differs from those who have specific hardware issues under Vista?

Google a driver for Vista and you're usually directed straight to the download page ! ......... Not some obscure forum or blog !

Quoting Raindog:
Why don't they count? There is a wealth of information freely available, and anyone with a reasonable attitude can gain Linux support.

Freely availible info from forums full of anti-MS comments and backslapping because they get Ubuntu running on a 386 ! Trawling through thousands of posts full of puerile comments to find one useful piece of info is not my idea of spending a weekend. I'd rather pay for support and get my system up and running ASAP !

Quoting Raindog:
You'd be equally troubled by a cordless drill if you expected it to behave in the same manner as a brace and bit, and yet both devices achieve the same task.

Yes ! But would the brace and bit be better because someone gave it to you (read FREE) ? ...... ;-)




08 October 2008, 9:35 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
This site would be so boring if you weren't on board Raindog ! (i'm serious) !

Glad you are getting value! Any amusement or education you may receive however, is still entirely coincidental. :>


Quoting Me In Oz:
But the most of the Linux geeks won't admit it !

Well I cannot speak on behalf of most Linux geeks, you were replying to my post so you are in error assuming I would fall into such a category.


Quoting Me In Oz:
And why is this not extended to purchased products (lets keep in mind that these netbooks were purchased and not FREE).

Ok. lets also keep in mind that the complaints mentioned in the topic do not refer to any proven bug?


Quoting Me In Oz:
That's pretty presumptous !
My experiences with ......
... I'm sure there are thousands who have had similar issues !

The experiences you quoted apply pretty much to a single machine, and set of hardware components. You could find just as many hardware configurations where Vista failed to support the hardware properly.
No OS holds an advantage in this area.
Square pegs, round holes. Isn't Linux not working for you so I mustn't work for anyone is a presumption? I was neither presumptous(?) or presumptuous.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Google a driver for Vista and you're usually directed straight to the download page !

And from that page you more often than not will find you need a new version or later firmware, or the text. "not supported for MS Vista"


Quoting Me In Oz:
Trawling through thousands of posts full of puerile comments to find one useful piece of info is not my idea of spending a weekend.

Shooting imaginary onscreen bad-guys is not my ideal way of spending a weekend either. Again I'd suggest either your search skills are poor or you experience is years out of date. Most good nix sites run a wiki which will get you straight to the content without the pages of opinion. On balance I can generally get answers equally as fast for Linux or Windows. And upon finding bugs in Linux I can of receive fixes,workarounds and updates within hours or days, not the months it usually takes with waiting for MS.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Yes ! But would the brace and bit be better because someone gave it to you (read FREE) ? ...... ;-)

That depends entirely upon the problem that needs to be solved. Each item has its strengths and weaknesses. Only a clever man would use either one as appropriate. :>



08 October 2008, 1:14 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
the doofus's in this case were windophiles who got out of their depth buying a product they did not understand to solve a problem they did not have.

Classic case of 'Better the devil you know' !
And if these MS traitors decide that going to the dark side will scratch that itch they have to become part of the 'command line' crowd, well it is truly a case of 'live and learn' ..... They'll be back when they find out the hard way that Linux is NOT the saviour of the desktop !




08 October 2008, 12:08 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

I'm glad you two have distinct pics, as it makes it easier to skip these dialogues.

09 October 2008, 12:37 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting AndyCee:
I'm glad you two have distinct pics, as it makes it easier to skip these dialogues.

LOL !
You read every one AndyCee !




09 October 2008, 1:03 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply
09 October 2008, 1:25 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Quoting Me In Oz:

Now what can we dig up on OSX :)

Seriously, don't go there. You'll just make an angry mob from a certain forum come over here and tell you how 'Great' their OS is....

08 October 2008, 12:22 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Jeff (User):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Even the Linux geeks know it's limited appeal to the average user


And thats why everyone I know who has tried Linux have moved over to using Linux full time, shifting to Windows only when needed (generally only for games)?? And the people I am talking about range from tech savvy people (like myself) to people who have only basic computing skills (and with these people I have had less peoblems to deal with than when they were using windows)...

08 October 2008, 4:40 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

Here is a simple equation for anyone sick of fiddling with scripts, emulators and anti-virus apps !

Apple + Mac OSX = It Just Works + Happy customers

07 October 2008, 5:53 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting plutonium210:
Apple + Mac OSX = It Just Works

Well not on netbooks it doesn't,(yes I know some teapot mocked up some unstable tragedy) but where is the commercial Apple Netbooks offering? So no beer for team skivvy today.

What's that you say? Newton? Yeah ground breaking! Or was that land-filling? :>

07 October 2008, 8:42 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Yeah, whatever floats your boat.

08 October 2008, 12:17 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Bry (User):

It's not terribly surprising people are returning Linux based netbooks, Windows familiarity and support for additional hardware leave that O/S in its wake.

07 October 2008, 7:20 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

It's a tiny laptop with almost every bit of hardware you'd want already in it! What the heck else do you want to add that isn't supported?!?!

If we're going off experiences here, let me jump in and talk about software modems and those damned AC97 chips that Windows thinks are all C-Media chips. It's no wonder people keep returning Windows PCs when they try to install those!

07 October 2008, 9:53 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Bry (User):

Quoting Tin:
It's a tiny laptop with almost every bit of hardware you'd want already in it! What the heck else do you want to add that isn't supported?!?!

Of course I'd be thinking of those items I want to add that aren't necessarily in the box.

12 October 2008, 7:21 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Makes sense, I guess.

Many people are sticking with XP and holding out against Vista, despite Vista's advantages as an OS. Microsoft has been so successful with XP, people associate it with a computer automatically. A brown screen and no start menu wouldn't make sense to someone not expecting it.

The same doesn't happen with mobile phones, since everyone assumes different phones have a different interface. No company has built an association like Windows.

As an aside, who gets excited by this kind of news?

07 October 2008, 10:01 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Jeff (User):

Quoting AndyCee:
despite Vista's advantages as an OS

And what advantages are those?? The only ones I have found so far are the search in the start menu and its looks prettier - The majority of the rest of the OS is worse than the equivalent parts in XP...

Quoting AndyCee:
A brown screen and no start menu wouldn't make sense to someone not expecting it.

All they have to do is keep an open mind - then they might be in for a pleasant surprise...

08 October 2008, 4:26 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Seriously...

While better and worse are a matter of personal taste for the start menu, there are enough forums out there to argue about Vista vs XP for me to leave it to them to argue. XP was missing some badly needed features (mostly behind the scenes stuff) which required a rewrite of the OS.

And I'm well aware of how to be pleasantly surprised by a linux distro. It's not my decision to make for someone else though.

09 October 2008, 12:35 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting AndyCee:
As an aside, who gets excited by this kind of news?

If people can queue in the Sydney winter to purchase a phone with the major distinction being an apple logo on it, then I guess someone somewhere is cockahoot with this kind of announcement


09 October 2008, 12:28 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

As a second aside, I think perhaps some of the above posters are unfamiliar with what a netbook is.

To clarify:
- Not for gaming
- OS is pre-installed
- Drivers are included (Ideally, though I'm not sure with the WIND)
- Can't add hardware to a netbook (except peripherals, of course)

Just to make sure we're all on the same page.

07 October 2008, 10:08 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting AndyCee:
To clarify:
- Not for gaming
- OS is pre-installed
- Drivers are included (Ideally, though I'm not sure with the WIND)
- Can't add hardware to a netbook (except peripherals, of course)

Just to make sure we're all on the same page.

So even with all this hand-holding, they are still returned and the complaints are still about ease of use !




07 October 2008, 11:51 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
So even with all this hand-holding, they are still returned and the complaints are still about ease of use !

This does not make the complaints in any way valid however. You cannot teach anyone who chooses not to learn. Simple as that.


08 October 2008, 9:00 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
This does not make the complaints in any way valid however.

Why ? To paraphrase your above post, "if you paid for it, you have every right to complain"




08 October 2008, 9:44 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Why ? To paraphrase your above post, "if you paid for it, you have every right to complain"

Operator inability is not a valid cause for complaint. We are talking about the same mindset that purchases a motorcycle without learning to ride then seeing it as the manufacturers fault that they fell off.

For all these complaints where is the confirmed reports of flaws apparent in the included Linux OS? That's right there are none! The complaints are therefore invalid!


08 October 2008, 12:43 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
For all these complaints where is the confirmed reports of flaws apparent in the included Linux OS? That's right there are none!

And you know this for a fact ?
Probabilities will suggest that some of the complaints were not just about 'operator inability'




08 October 2008, 12:54 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Probabilities will suggest that some of the complaints were not just about 'operator inability'

I'd suggest not a single complaint was made by purchasers about their own inability. But from all these complaints where are the substantiated reports of a discovered Linux OS flaw?



08 October 2008, 2:03 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
But from all these complaints where are the substantiated reports of a discovered Linux OS flaw?

Well ! Until we are privvy to the whole report, it would seem you and I are just guessing :)
Hey ! We didn't even know about this issue until APC reported it !
And I'll guarantee no one on any Linux forum 'broke' this news !




08 October 2008, 2:16 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
it would seem you and I are just guessing

I never guess, this was a best estimate given the information available. :>


Quoting Me In Oz:
And I'll guarantee no one on any Linux forum 'broke' this news !

is that a money back guarantee? :>


09 October 2008, 12:23 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
is that a money back guarantee?

Most of our comments are an educated gamble .......... So sorry Raindog, no money back :)




09 October 2008, 11:05 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Quoting Me In Oz:
So even with all this hand-holding, they are still returned and the complaints are still about ease of use !

I haven't heard any MSI complaints about ease of use.


09 October 2008, 1:37 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Well ! Until we are privvy to the whole report

I wonder if APC can get their hands on the full report !
And I'd also like to know what happens when irate customers return these things with the view of a refund or an upgrade to XP ?

08 October 2008, 3:31 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aubrey (Advanced member):

"Quoting Me In Oz:
And I'll guarantee no one on any Linux forum 'broke' this news ! "

Check out http://www.desktoplinux.com

I bought an Acer One with Linux - because it was a machine actually built with Linux in mind, not because it was cheaper than the Windows version. It was truly an awful implementation. Even as an experienced (well, two years) Linux user, the distro that came pre-installed (Linpus Lite) was so dumbed down and locked up, I put another distro on it immediately (which was a major PITA because of kernel issues with the Atom processor!). I also decided (stupidly) to upgrade the thing - more RAM and a faster (ie more that the 5 to 7 Mb/s of the installed one) SD card. Another nightmare.

It took me three weeks and several international shopping expeditions (and the purchase of a Dremel!) to get it up and running as a (now very) viable little portable. All up it actually cost me significantly more than the Windows XP version of the same machine (which comes with more RAM and a HDD).

My point is that the implementation of Linux on some of these machines (I understand that MSI's is even worse than Acer's) is woefully inadequate - underpowered, hacked together badly, no documentation and NO SUPPORT!

If I hadn't voided the warranty, I may have returned mine as well. (But I always void the warranty!)

But for all that, as I say, it is (now) a great little Linux machine!

I agree that many of the returns are probably from nitwits who saw a "cheaper" version and got in over their head. But I really think the manufacturers have done both Linux and their customers a dis-service by producing badly designed products. I hope DELL gets it right (even though they have stupidly left-off important function keys.)

09 October 2008, 10:46 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Thanks for the sincere and honest reply. I always thought you were one of the sensible ones :)

Your 'issues' are quite common among the Linux crowd. 2 Weeks of screwing around with Ubuntu 7.04 has nearly put me off Linux for life. Mandriva has thrown some credibility back into this OS (at least for me) and I'm playing around with it under VMWare 6. I quite like it :)

And to reciprocate, it wasn't all beer and skittles when I first installed Vista back in Feb '07 either. It slow and quite unstable due to the OEM driver issues back then. Along with incompatible apps that I was happy using, MS nearly lost a customer here too !

Your experience is definitely not out of the ordinary for people who want to dabble with the FREE stuff. But this just re-inforces my views about the usability and accessibility for the 'average' user.
I agree that Linux/Unix is super stable for large volume server applications (we have one here running Unix) but for the 'average' single licence user, this benefit is superfluous. And that's why Win and OSX will always triumph in the single licence market.

People will always dabble in Linux if they ever want to be more than just a mouse clicker. And personally, editing scripts, batch files, etc has inevitably taught me a mountain of info. The benefit is that I'm rarely stumped by any computer 'issue'

Cheers :)

09 October 2008, 11:18 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Just thought I'd give my experience buying a linux laptop, as a linux user.

I bought from pioneer computers with an Ubuntu pre-install. I figured I'd save running an install disk and add one tally to the known 'linux-user and buyer' list.

The site gave notes that drivers may be unavailable. "Oh well" I reasoned. "If nothing works I'll just return it". When it arrived, the windows drivers were included on a CD. Thanks for that.

When I booted I was faced with the Ubuntu logon screen.
"Cool" I thought."Now - what's my username...hmmm...ummm"

And so ends the story of how I was locked out of my own new laptop.

In my case the system was set up badly/lazily to appeal to a minority market (ie. linux users). NOTHING was configured, no drivers installed. It took me 5 minutes get around the logon problem, and a bit of bandwidth for Ubuntu to get the graphics card driver, but I was unimpressed. Why bother pre-installing at all?

Since I've never seen MSI's linux install, I can't relate my story directly. I can vouch that a bad set-up can make you want your money back. For all I know, even the linux users may have been returning them.

[note - my laptop and I have made a fresh start, and we get along fine now]

09 October 2008, 1:15 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aubrey (Advanced member):

Quoting AndyCee:
Why bother pre-installing at all?

I agree and my "enthusiasm" for pre-installed Linux has cooled a lot. I think the industry is a bit schizophrenic about their target market. If they want existing Linux users or corporates to buy their Linux version, they are going to have to get a whole lot better at delivering workable implementations.

If they are marketing to kids and cheap dimwits, they should either make it look exactly like windows or just give 'em XP in the first place - I heard that MS is now charging a USD 10 licence fee for XP on netbooks anyway.

I'm amazed you didn't get drivers with a new laptop - I didn't think OEMs were restricted from distributing proprietary drivers with new equipment. Perhaps it was pure laziness and contempt for users that caused it. The log-in issue suggests it may have been.

I guess we should be thankful that the hardware manufacturers are at least delivering Linux compatible components and gradually open-sourcing their drivers (although the SD drives in some netbooks are close to useless on any modern OS, IMO)



09 October 2008, 3:04 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting AndyCee:
I bought from pioneer computers with an Ubuntu pre-install.


I bought a laptop from that lot a few years back. Ordered it one day, got a call to confirm the next. They said it was ready to build and send, so I paid for it. 2 weeks later they hadn't shipped it because parts were not in stock. When they finally did ship it, the modem was missing and the motherboard was broken.
2.5 months after paying for it, it was still sitting at that dodgy place waiting on a modem. They refused to give a refund or credit me for the difference in price (that model had dropped about $300 since I paid).
I'd say it's not worth touching the dodgy place.

(BTW, Pioneer Computers is completely unrelated to the audio equipment company for those that don't know).

09 October 2008, 6:02 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Why haven't ASUS released a report for the EeePC? They've been around much longer, and had much worse hardware support in the 701 model than the MSI wind.

09 October 2008, 1:27 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

While we are now sitting around pouring out our emotions of OS relationships, I'll relate my latest one.

I acquired a Toshiba 'Solar Flare' uber gaming laptop last month and within 90 minutes the Vista Home Premium OS was installed, activated and updated, and I was playing WOW (World Of Warcraft) online !

Mind you, the damn thing cost me $3000, so I'd be pretty pissed if it didn't :)

09 October 2008, 1:32 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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