AFACT v iiNet: the case that could shut down the Internet

David Neiger
25 November 2008, 5:52 PM


We've asked prominent legal experts for their opinion on iiNet's chances of successfully defending itself in the user piracy lawsuit.


The case for copyright infringement brought against iiNet by a consortium of 34 movie studios and Channel 7, represented by the Australian Federation against Copyright Theft (“AFACT”) will be the first test case to determine the scope of an Internet Service Provider’s liability for copyright infringement conducted by users under Australian Copyright Law.

Depending upon who you ask, lawyers for the consortium would have you believe that this is a simple case that iiNet has no hope of winning. iiNet, on the other hand, has pledged to “vigorously defend the Federal Court action” denying that they have in any way given support or encouragement for its users to breach copyright.

We've interviewed various legal experts including Steve White, the Principal of Steve White Computer Law and other lawyers who preferred not to be quoted by name to help you understand this case. (Disclosure: as well as being a tech journalist, I am also solicitor with experience in copyright law.)

The first thing to understand is that this case is a civil action which means that AFACT is suing iiNet to either obtain money (damages) or an injunction (a court order to make or stop iiNet from doing something). They are doing this under sections 115 and 116 of the Copyright Act 1968 (as amended) which are the provisions which deal with infringement of copyright. Since this is not a criminal prosecution, the directors of iiNet are not at risk of jail terms or fines.

Understanding copyright

Copyright is a set of exclusive rights given by the government to individuals and companies who produce books, sound recordings, cinematographic works (TV shows and movies), computer programs and artistic works (photos, sculptures, dance etc.). The exclusive rights given to copyright holders include the right to reproduce the work (copy), cause the work to be seen in public (broadcast) or communicate the work to the public.

If a person does anything which is an exclusive right of a copyright holder without the copyright holder’s permission (except for a few legal exemptions) they have infringed the copyright and may be sued for damages (recovery of financial loss), obtain an injunction against them (where the court tells them to stop doing something) or obtain a court order (where the court tells them to do something).

Reading through the Statement of Claim (which is a public document) one can see the approach that AFACT has taken against iiNet. The first 56 Particulars of the claim establish the basis that AFACT have for taking iiNet to court by stating that the studios suing iiNet are the copyright holders and have complied with the conditions to obtain copyright protection.

Particular 57 is not likely to be contested as it merely states the iiNet is an ISP. Particular 58 specifies what iiNet, as an ISP, does and is also not likely to be contested.

The case against iiNet is largely contained in Particular 59 which alleges that iiNet Customers have breached copyright by making available, electronically transmitting and making copies of the copyrighted materials. It will be necessary for AFACT, under the balance of probabilities, to prove that this was the case by presenting evidence of the breaches of copyright. The court will then need to decide on the validity of the evidence as to whether copyright breaches took place.

Particular 60 alleges the iiNet Customers made further copies of the films onto DVD. Steve White believes that this Particular is largely irrelevant as any of the actions detailed in Particular 59 would be sufficient to establish a breach of copyright (and, frankly, it is hard to imagine how AFACT could know that iiNet customers burned downloads to disc, unless they have been staking out people's houses.)

The court fight will revolve around Particular 63 which alleges that iiNet knew copyright breaches were going on but did nothing to prevent copyright infringements. According to White, “the critical question is to what extent the ISP is responsible for the acts of others.” If AFACT can show that iiNet through its actions or inactions was encouraging breach of copyright and if the court determines that the precedent set in the Kazaa case (Universal Music v Sharman Networks) is relevant then iiNet may be liable for indirect breach of copyright under s101 of the Copyright Act. This is what AFACT is claiming under Particular 64. White, however, believes that “On the basis of the statement of claim, without any further particulars, it is difficult to see that the movie companies have good claims. In the absence of encouragement to actually infringe the rights of the movie companies, which is contradictory to the ISP’s terms and conditions, the claim does not appear to be going anywhere.”

AFACT may be hard pressed to prove the allegations set out in Particular 65 that “iiNet has authorised the doing of the acts of iiNet Users” to infringe copyright.

As a defence, it is likely that iiNet will rely on the safe harbour provisions of the Copyright Act (Division 2AA) which exempt an ISP from liability if all they do is merely transmit data, automatically cache data (without specifically caching copyrighted material), store data at the direction of a user or provide a search facility subject to conditions specified in the Copyright Act.

While the Copyright Act lists in general what an ISP is required to do in order to qualify for safe harbour protections, such as terminating repeat infringers in appropriate circumstances, what this wording translates to in practical terms has not yet been determined in court -- and this is what this court case is all about: establishing that.  

iiNet argues that it would not be appropriate for an ISP to accept evidence provided by the movie industry to cut off someone's internet and phone line -- and that it would need a court order to do so. The movie industry is arguing the opposite. It's not clear from the wording of the Copyright Act which is correct, so a court will have to decide.

Of course White’s view is not shared by everyone. Ian McDonald, the Senior Legal Officer at the Australian Copyright Council disagrees. He believes that iiNet infringed copyright by virtue of making copies of infringing material either in their cache or even by virtue of being stored temporarily in their routers. McDonald believes that “Where material is being cached temporarily through an ISP’s network then they have reproduction occurring even if they are not aware of it.” McDonald believe the issue will come down to what remedy AFACT will have against the ISP which could include an account of lost profits or other damages.

Whatever the outcome, the case will finally test the safe harbour provisions of the Copyright Act and will, if successful against iiNet, change the way Australians will be able to access the Internet.

The relief that a court may grant in an action for an infringement of copyright includes an injunction (subject to such terms, if any, as the court thinks fit) and either damages or an account of lost profits.

Listen to an interview with Nicolas Suzor of Electronic Frontiers Australia

Interviewer: David Neiger. (Apologies for the poor audio quality.)


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Sp33d d3mon (User):

Oh no, could that mean I'm forced to move to Internode?
(By the way - that's a good thing)


25 November 2008, 6:29 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

The Big Baboo (User):

Quoting Sp33d d3mon:
Oh no, could that mean I'm forced to move to Internode?(By the way - that's a good thing)
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay do it bro do it now



11 March 2009, 11:04 AM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

todd (New user):

"Since this is not a criminal prosecution, the directors of iiNet are at risk of jail terms or fines."

I think you mean 'the directors of iiNet are *not* at risk of jail terms or fines.'

25 November 2008, 6:52 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Prangitt (New user):

"Since this is not a criminal prosecution, the directors of iiNet are at risk of jail terms or fines."

Missed a word out there did we?

"as well as being a tech journalist, I am also solicitor with experience in copyright law."

"I am also solicitor"... pity you don't seem to have experience in proof reading an article before posting it...

back on topic, the FTA with the US seems to be pretty specific regarding the "safe harbour" provisions... No way will iiNet lose this one...

William Prangitt



25 November 2008, 6:58 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

David Neiger (APC staff):

Well spotted... it just goes to show that even solicitors (and journalists) are human and typos can slip through.

It is not actually clear whether iiNet can rely on the safe harbour provisions because there are a lot of conditions required before an ISP can rely on them and it is not clear under the Copyright Act what in practice an ISP must do to comply. This is why this case is being taken to court as it allows the court to rule on a particular set of facts to see if the law does or doesn't apply.

If you read the section of the Act http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/s116ah.html you will find that the safe harbour provisions are extremely complicated. What is most difficult is the definition of a "repeat offender". The Act does not specify who determines what constitutes a "repeat offender" - is is someone found by the police to be a repeat offender, is it someone who the court finds to have infringed copyright, is it someone that AFACT claims is a repeat offender (the position that obviously AFACT would like the court to adopt) or is it someone the ISP suspects is infringing copyright. Will it be sufficient if someone simply rings up Crime Stoppers and alleges that their neighbour is watching a movie on their computer? Until the court clarifies exactly what an ISP is required to do, the safe harbour provisions are far from being an open and shut case.


26 November 2008, 9:05 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

wilse (New user):

iinet has made no effort in at least warning the offenders to desist even thought they have had heaps of prior warning.

25 November 2008, 8:21 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

The Specialist (New user):

I think if you read a variety of other documentation on this case you will see iiNet is not the only one who omits to warn 'offenders'. The only reason this has got so far is 'proof' from a authorised licensee being able to download infringing materials from a peer to peer service and also being able to ask for technical support on the matter of using bit torrent. You will undoubtedly find that Telstra themselves have failed to do to pass similar warnings; and what is the next step if iiNet lose? - Will Telstra then be sued for doing the same thing themselves and also providing the infrastructure for as you so eloquently put it 'offenders'?

I think you'll find this smacks of a repeat Napster like case; however, instead of involving software to allow infringing materials being transmitted, it's an ISP providing the service (which might I add has just as many, if not more, legal uses) with which these 'offenders' use flagrantly to infringe copyright.

I'm not a solicitor though so perhaps my knowledge is in its infancy on this matter (I am studying law).

25 November 2008, 10:21 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

splatman (New user):

"Where material is being cached temporarily through an ISP’s network then they have reproduction occurring even if they are not aware of it."

That being the case Australia Post is guilty of illegal importation of drugs.

25 November 2008, 10:10 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

splatman (New user):

"Where material is being cached temporarily through an ISP’s network then they have reproduction occurring even if they are not aware of it."

That being the case Australia Post is guilty of illegal importation of drugs.

25 November 2008, 10:14 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

herewego (New user):

lol. nice. the judgment in this case will be watched worldwide and despite the laws, a decision will be made that will be cognisant of the ramifications on the broader internet community. Ignorance has never been a valid defence, but does Australia become an internet island as well as a physical one?...personally i dont see AFACT winning for many reasons. theres more consideration of why they wont win to why they would. But who knows eh?- the legal system is a complete joke with decisions raising eyebrows every day- liars convincing judges, and judgments to the contrary being made even against the weight of evidence. You might as well flip a coin when its like this. It'd be a much cheaper solution and at least that way you can blame it on probability.

26 November 2008, 7:58 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

m!ksta (New user):

I don't see what the problem with downloading Tv shows is - they go free to air.. the Australian Television networks.. thats right.. listen up Seven Network - need to fast track all of the content that is being downloaded or shut the hell up. It's rediculous that we are forced to wait usually up to 6 months for prime time shows to air - Some content we dont even have in Australia yet. If you ask me- they bring it on themseleves.

25 November 2008, 10:37 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Rickyrick (New user):

Quote

"Of course White’s view is not shared by everyone. Ian McDonald, the Senior Legal Officer at the Australian Copyright Council disagrees. He believes that iiNet infringed copyright by virtue of making copies of infringing material either in their cache or even by virtue of being stored temporarily in their routers. McDonald believes that “Where material is being cached temporarily through an ISP’s network then they have reproduction occurring even if they are not aware of it.” McDonald believe the issue will come down to what remedy AFACT will have against the ISP which could include an account of lost profits or other damages. "

If iiNet is found guilty of this (specifically, copyright material momentarily being stored in its routers) and the safe harbour provisions do not apply, then anyone along any link of the chain to the internet can and will be found guilty.

This means (but not limited to) the last mile provider (Telstra), any peering hosts like WAIX or PIPE, dark or light fibre providers like Optus, satellite providers like Optus, plus other routers and equipment owned and operated via various companies, national and international.

If the judgment is successful on these grounds, say goodbye to the internet as we know it.

25 November 2008, 10:55 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

RobG (New user):

It's unlikely that a router cache could hold at any one time the entirety of a movie or other video stream of significant size. I don't think storing small parts of a copyright work could necessarily be described as storing the whole copyright work. As you say, if it could be construed that storing parts of copyright works momentarily as they passed through the system then all companies in the network would also be liable. Is this another case of US companies taking on a soft target in Australia because they can't afford a legal fight in the USA?

25 November 2008, 11:55 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

David Neiger (APC staff):

There is actually a difference according to McDonald (a view which personally I don't share). A fibre provider never actually makes a copy of the work in a material form - light or electrical pulses go in one end and come out the other without being stored anywhere. McDonald's understanding is the routers copy the data into RAM (which has been found by the courts to be making a copy of the work in a material form) and then retransmit it when bandwidth becomes available. I suspect that this argument will fail simply because the few packets that a router stores would not be considered to be a substantial part of the work. Where the problem could arise is if an ISP cached sites containing copyright material because that would be considered to be a significant part of the work. Since ISPs do not actually cache torrents (being a peer to peer technology) I suspect this argument would fall down fairly quickly.

B.T.W. McDonald did think that Telstra could technically be found guilty of infringement for transmitting copyright works if I was to play a copyrighted song down the phone line to someone. This was debated at length in the music on hold case which you can read here http://www.murdoch.edu.au/elaw/issues/v4n3/apli43.html

26 November 2008, 8:48 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

amueh (New user):

Even considering valid the making copy on routers issue the easiest fix would be outsourcing the router business to another independent company.



26 November 2008, 10:24 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

observantbystander (New user):

So if you flip the bits in data stream, i.e zeros become ones and vice versa, or run a light algorithm before caching to disk/ram is this still copying? most of the formats of these movies have been changed via codecs anyways. Whilst many torrents do infringe on copy right, the points of infringement they are trying to apply are laughable.

26 November 2008, 1:15 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

McBanjo (New user):

Ian McDonald is so full of his own s**t. If I have bought a movie on DVD, I feel I have every right to download the same movie from a P2P network, without infringing any copyright. I've paid for the media, and I'm entitled to view and use it in any format I choose. Just like how I can rip the music from a CD to my computer or my iPod.

The fact that users are transferring files to and from each other does not necessarily mean that they are infringing copyright. It should only be an infringement on a case-by-case basis, based on whether the movie studio was or wasn't paid their dues, by the individual, for the product they've received.

These laws should be read with a 'purposive approach,' or did this "Senior Legal Officer" not even study law? The law was written to protect the intellectual property of artists and creators. To give them a right to their hard work, and prevent people from stealing it. It's not there to sue an ISP because they are caching data which may randomly consist of a copywriter's intellectual property. You can't make an ISP responsible for what's on the internet.

Something else that has to be taken into account is the burden of iiNet taking action and blocking (or even just warning) their users on insubstantial grounds. The competition is fierce, you only have to spend a second on a forum like Whirlpool to know that word (and market share) spreads fast, very fast.

25 November 2008, 11:29 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

David Neiger (APC staff):

Quoting McBanjo:
If I have bought a movie on DVD, I feel I have every right to download the same movie from a P2P network, without infringing any copyright. I've paid for the media, and I'm entitled to view and use it in any format I choose. Just like how I can rip the music from a CD to my computer or my iPod

Sorry to inform you but this is actually breaching copyright the way the law stands in Australia. Only the copyright owner has the right to make copies of the work or transfer it into a different format although there is a limited statutory right to copy sound recordings to a different device for personal use provided you OWN a legal copy of the CD or record (see S109A Copyright Act). Note that this provision specifically EXCLUDES downloading a rip from the Internet.

With regards to video S110A makes it clear that the right to make a backup copy only applies to videotapes in analogue form (aka VHS or Betacam)not DVDs.

Otherwise you must have a license from the copyright owner (for example if you purchase a song from iTunes you have a license to copy it to your portable music player) ripping or copying the downloaded file is breaching copyright. The only exception is copy music from a CD that you own onto a memory stick or IPod for your own use.

The fact that everyone breaches copyright does not change the law.

However if enough people felt strongly about it, they could lobby their MPs to get the law changed. Unfortunately though the music and film industries (particularly US ones) can lobby harder.



26 November 2008, 8:54 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

The Big Baboo (User):

Quoting McBanjo:
If I have bought a movie on DVD, I feel I have every right to download the same movie from a P2P network, without infringing any copyright.
McBanjo my friend :) If you bought a movie on DVD :)Why on God's green earth would you waste bandwidth downloading the blasted thing again?
Besides,DVD's are so cool with their already printed info,little booklets and some extras which you probably wouldn't bother with assuming you downloaded them which you wouldn't of course.




07 October 2009, 8:10 AM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Steven Hambleton (New user):

I find it interesting that the detective employed to download this 'illegal' material did so with permission from the studios. Does this make the evidence inadmissible as no crime was committed?

26 November 2008, 1:00 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dan Warne (Regular user):

The guy may have had permission to download it, but the guy at the other end didn't have permission to upload it.

26 November 2008, 11:32 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

FostWare (New user):

Ian McDonald, the Senior Legal Officer at the Australian Copyright Council disagrees. He believes that iiNet infringed copyright by virtue of making copies of infringing material either in their cache or even by virtue of being stored temporarily in their routers.

So by theatres transferring digital movies via VPN, there is (an encrypted) copy on the routers of every ISP involved.

Talk about hyperbole!

26 November 2008, 1:45 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

David Neiger (APC staff):

Slight but very important difference. Theatres are downloading the movies with the permission of the copyright owners which means that there is no copyright infringement. If however an ISP cached the movie or made a copy of the download stream onto a hard disk or memory key then it would be infringement.

For example it is perfectly legal for Channel 10 to download the current episode of House as part of their agreement with the copyright holders but if you do the same you don't have permission and you have infringed copyright.

26 November 2008, 9:10 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

glugalug (New user):

Oh no! Shock horror,close the net down? what toys will the big town kiddies find to play with & what will they do next? I think I know what Sony will do. The catholics want another kiddies picnic at randwick racecoarse every weekend. That will mean few dates for Sony & the Pope to look forward to.

26 November 2008, 4:54 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

glennza (New user):

Car manufacturers better watch out! Not only do they supply a product that can be used for criminal purposes but they must know this and do nothing about it.

Same thing.

26 November 2008, 8:01 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

David Neiger (APC staff):

It is not as crazy as it sounds. People have attempted to sue companies and there are a series of ridiculous cases where people tried to sue companies because the label on the can said just heat and eat and the can exploded (doh! forgot to open the can first). However you are dealing with a different tort (civil action) which is negligence. This is very different to copyright infringement where the Copyright Act specifically makes it an offense to "authorize" someone to infringe copyright. The question before the court will be whether iiNet authorised copyright infringement by not taking action or even worse made it clear that they would not take action against users who infringe copyright. This was one of the arguments in the Kazaa case where Sharman Networks actually encouraged users to start the revolution thereby authorising Kazaa users to infringe copyright. Limewire makes you click an agreement that you will NOT use the software to infringe copyright - whether or not that is sufficient is debatable too.

26 November 2008, 9:17 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

herewego (New user):

so in effect the argument is that it may be illegal to provide the mechanism that enables copyright infringement?- where that mechanism exists to concurrently enable legal activities (using the same handling method- caching or in memory or whatever)..if that is the case then all media is on shaky ground, right?

if it is successful, and it becomes illegal to copy or hold the data somewhere, maybe the internet wont die, but it would surely be strangled. The new infrastructure required to manage the amount of live data from point to point would cripple comms.
and that would include those doing it for day to day activities- itd grind to a halt.


26 November 2008, 11:17 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

the.odd.byte (New user):

So the Roads & Traffic Authority (NSW) and it's equivalents in other states know people break the law on our roads every day - speeding, drink driving, etc - so by analogy, they are liable for allowing this. Lets close down all the roads & sue the RTA!

26 November 2008, 8:53 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Oly Ward (New user):

You have omitted the fact that iiNet passed on all the alleged offences directly to the police for prosecution, and repeatedly told AFACT to follow up with the police.

If nothing else - it should never be possible that any corporation can compell another corporation to punish an individual without needing to verify facts in court, and without giving the individual any right of defence etc. This has been going on for years in the anti-spam blacklist community - where blacklist operators "list" IP addresses and subsequently get them blocked from emailling... the operators rarely check anything (and the "evidence" is easily forged anyhow) before they cut off the victim. Often, there's no right of appeal, and quite frequently, erroneous or even malicious blacklistings took place. Not surprisingly - more than a few blacklist operators got sued - all of them lost, and ended up shutting down and having all their assets stripped.

There is a right way to obey the law - and taking it into your own hands and declaring yourself judge, jury, and executioner is *not* it.

26 November 2008, 9:53 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Edwardo (New user):

"iiNet argues that it would not be appropriate for an ISP to accept evidence provided by the movie industry to cut off someone's internet and phone line -- and that it would need a court order to do so. The movie industry is arguing the opposite. It's not clear from the wording of the Copyright Act which is correct, so a court will have to decide."

I am not sure if it was the Kazza case, in which members of the movie industry obtained information via super nodes on user details and promptely forced users to discontinue the use of this service. It was later over turned because it was a breach of privacy act?

Just wondering if iiNet was indeed ordered to terminate users post court battle of the users identified by afact, wont that be also an infringement of privacy.

just one other thing, google streetview, isn't that a breach of privacy as well?

26 November 2008, 11:06 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

herewego (New user):

..."just one other thing, google streetview, isn't that a breach of privacy as well?.."

i agree. it isnt copyright law but Google didnt ask me for permission to post my house publicly. What rights do i have to my ownership of my property?..surely one needs to gain permission to obtain and publish what i own? no?

in fact its a nice way for potential crimes to be planned whereby the viewer can assess access points and escape routes.

does that mean google is facilitating crime?..and does that mean if i access Google Earth my ISP is providing the mechanism?

or maybe it's ACER or IBM or Compaq who, without them we couldnt transmit and share this information?

perhaps ultimately its Tim Berners-Lee who is at fault?


26 November 2008, 11:24 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Oly Ward (New user):

It's off-topic, but I happen to fly aircraft, and am aware of people having complained about overflying ... turns out that folks on the ground don't actually enjoy the so-called "privacy protection" that they think they do, or beleive they have a right to.

26 November 2008, 11:57 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

David Neiger (APC staff):

Don't rely on the Privacy Act to protect you! According to a spokesperson from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, under Section 2.1(f) of the National Privacy Principles (which may apply to ISPs), an organisation may disclose private information if the "organisation has reason to suspect that unlawful activity has been, is being or may be engaged in, and uses or discloses the personal information as a necessary part of its investigation of the matter or in reporting its concerns to relevant persons or authorities" (See http://www.privacy.gov.au/publications/npps01.html#npp2). Given that breaching copyright is an unlawful activity, the ISP may provided the information to an interested party (the copyright holder) and would definitely need to give the information to the police as part of a criminal investigation or to an organisation if there is a court order to do so.

If information was obtained illegally this would go to the admissibility of that evidence but provided there was other evidence available (for example AFACT obtained a court order to seize computers containing illegal file downloads) this would not necessarily affect the case.

26 November 2008, 2:16 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Oly Ward (New user):

You have omitted the fact that iiNet passed on all the alleged offences directly to the police for prosecution, and repeatedly told AFACT to follow up with the police.

If nothing else - it should never be possible that any corporation can compell another corporation to punish an individual without needing to verify facts in court, and without giving the individual any right of defence etc. This has been going on for years in the anti-spam blacklist community - where blacklist operators "list" IP addresses and subsequently get them blocked from emailling... the operators rarely check anything (and the "evidence" is easily forged anyhow) before they cut off the victim. Often, there's no right of appeal, and quite frequently, erroneous or even malicious blacklistings took place. Not surprisingly - more than a few blacklist operators got sued - all of them lost, and ended up shutting down and having all their assets stripped.

There is a right way to obey the law - and taking it into your own hands and declaring yourself judge, jury, and executioner is *not* it.

26 November 2008, 11:57 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

qaz (New user):

so if AFACT wins, does that mean car manufacturers can be sued for people breaking the speed limit? It's their fault cars can go that fast...

26 November 2008, 2:08 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

SlapHeadEngageBrain (New user):

Anyone can go into a video store and copy one of the thousands of DVD's in store, there are no signs saying "do not do this" only the announcement at the start of the DVD. It is the person who burns who is guilty, but should the video store be at fault for providing the DVD's to people? No, they may suspect customers, but can't decline service. An ISP provides a service for people to download and upload, ultimately it is the user who is responsible for what they download. Should and ISP be responsible if a user downloads a terrorist training manual? or child pornography? Even if it is through a torrent portal, it is the responsibility of the user, and of the ISP to report any such supposed illegal activity to the police. Funnily enough, they have.

26 November 2008, 3:26 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Climba77 (New user):

Just a quick question:

If transferring copyrighted files through routers and caches is not illegal because the entirety of the file is not contained at one time, isn't transferring files by BitTorrent also not illegal for the same reason?

I know it becomes illegal as soon as it is re-assembled on the downloading computer, but what if you stored every second data chunk in a different location ad then spliced them back together to create a stream that is watched in real time with minimal buffering? At no point is the file stored in it's whole, contiguous form.

Surely there has to be a limit. If caching 0.5% of an MP3 isn't illegal, is storing 99.95% of the same MP3 in 0.5% chunks illegal?

26 November 2008, 4:03 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

MoneyMoneyMoney (New user):

LOL
How VERY interesting!
Why not sue Bigpond? No..?
Iprimus...?
Optus.....?
Of course not!!!! As they have MONEY!!! There is no way AFACT will risk losing face to someone who is in a stronger financial position to fight back.
Get with it people, Afact simply sue "small fishes" to appear to be doing their job to justify their ridiculous paychecks.
It's all the same isn't it, we've seen it before, we'll see it again.
Lawyers are the same too, it's ALL about getting rich through other peoples genuine suffering!
COME ON AFACT!!!! PROVE ME WRONG...just once, atempt to sue soeone who actually has as much financial backing as you, and stop testing the waters and testing your little tricks for loop holes on the common man!

26 November 2008, 6:04 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Regular user):

Telstra also has deals with some of the companies involved... Would upset the apple cart a little if they sued them.
Which is interesting since Telstra customer and LimeWire related viruses seem to go hand in hand at the shop I work at.... And I doubt they only use LimeWire for downloading their viruses.

27 November 2008, 9:23 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

DFTBA (New user):

As Barack Obama put it "the world needs less lawyers and more engineers"

26 November 2008, 7:55 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Cyrus Lesser (New user):

The case is doomed to fail. Steve White is 100% correct. For AFACT to prove an 'authorisation' case out of what they have pleaded is impossible. AFACT has to prove on the balance of probabilities that iiNet knowingly incited its users to breach copyright. That is inconsistent with the publicly known facts about iiNet reporting its users to the Police. Therefore AFACT's case is doomed to fail.

27 November 2008, 12:02 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

djf01 (New user):

Can I ask, WTF do AFACT hope to achieve with this action? Even if they win, what are they going to get out of it? A ban on router caching?

Almost all of the data transmitted by the ISPs is copyrighted by someone, and they participate in the copying of this to thousands or even millions of users from literally billions of different copyright owners. The ISPs have absolutely no way of knowing:
a) Who the actual copyright owner of the data is.
b) Whether or not they have given permission for that data to be copied (or)
c) Whether the user does or does not have an appropriate license to copy the data.

Short of only allowing customers to view nothing but the channel 7 we site, I can't see that there is anything the ISPs could actually do to avoid future successful actions if AFACT win this one.

Even if APART want to try and get Bit Torrent banned, it's not trivial for the ISPs to block it. Because it's a peer protocol, they have to use DPI filtering techniques - which has it's own ethical and legal problems.

Perhaps the agenda is the big copyright owners want there to be a royalty system for all internet data, on the basis that some of that content is probably theirs, and the ISPs be forced to pay a fee (presumably a percentage of all data carried) in the way businesses playing music in public places need to do.

To me though, this smells a lot like Unisys trying to get royalties from GIF files, or Microsoft claiming they invented FAT. Someone else trying to gain legal ownership of the internet.


27 November 2008, 12:06 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Gryphen (New user):

Makes you wonder where it will go from here. By rights if the ISP can be done for storring in the routers etc for having breached copyright, then even legally downloaded items (songs etc) would also be infringing copyright on the routers, because the person receiving is the only one who has the legal right to have the files, any copies elsewhere are there without consent. That is if this 'part of a file' is going to succeed as being a breach.

It looks like IINET took 'reasonable' steps to inform the authorities of an allegation of an offence, and that is after all what AFACT was actually presenting, they had information, but until proven it is only an allegation. In WA civilians can present photo/movie evidence of traffic offences to the cops, but it still has to be investigated, they don't just summarily issue an infringement based upon an allegation or video evidence, there is still the due process of law to be followed.

I think AFACT is just trying to get an easy target here in Australia so that they can then try it on with the bigger boys in the US market. After all it is still a lot cheaper to try it here first.

27 November 2008, 12:08 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Az (New user):

*Warning... Rant*
What a frustrating case, if they win this would mean any company or possibly an individual could get another person disconnected from a phone service/mobile service or internet service by providing some 'evidence', eg. claims given over a messenger service, or forums or hearsay (or perhaps even falsifying documents), and that company will have to disconnect them (given this precedent, why would they risk not disconnecting them? they might get sued).
Now I am sure they are not using forged documents, but bring back some sanity into this debate.
The only way someone should be forced to do anything is via a court order / police.

They need to prove those people are guilty in court, or to the police, before asking iiNet to disconnect them, otherwise what kind of precedent is that? it really does mean that for an ISP to be safe, they need to disconnect someone any time someone asks them to, no matter what the evidence, or reasons... Because even though those people may be innocent of piracy, an ISP will still choose to disconnect them to cover themselves.

- What happens to people who get done by wireless hackers? Disconnected.
- What happens to people on a shared network? Disconnected.
- What happens to people who use p2p legally? Disconnected.
- What happens to people who get a virus that uses their computer to host pirated material without their knowledge? Disconnected.
- What happens to mum and dads business when their internet gets disconnected because their bratty little kid (or kids friend) was downloading pirated materials? Disconnected
- ETC...

Yeah, lets take everyone's computer away from them, after all, it is a means for accessing copyrighted material. What a joke.


27 November 2008, 5:59 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Az (New user):

They should do the same thing to Foxtel and Austar and other Pay TV providers.
Have their PI get Pay TV and record all the shows onto VHS/DVD/HD...
Then they can send them some documents telling them they have to disconnect that PI, because they suspect him of piracy.
When they don't, sue!

27 November 2008, 7:47 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

soulbreed (New user):

My biggest concern is this comment.

Ian McDonald, the Senior Legal Officer at the Australian Copyright Council disagrees. He believes that iiNet infringed copyright by virtue of making copies of infringing material either in their cache or even by virtue of being stored temporarily in their routers. McDonald believes that “Where material is being cached temporarily through an ISP’s network then they have reproduction occurring even if they are not aware of it.”

Doesn't this comment drag every ISP that enabled iiNet in retriving the data into the fight? Since it would have to have been cached in every hop to iiNet. So does that not make iiNet's upstream provider in breach as the are enabling in this matter?



01 December 2008, 2:03 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Lothy (New user):

Unbelievable. To suggest that an ISP has breached copyright law is fallacious.
ISPs aren't endowed with any law-enforcement powers under the law and, this being the case, should not be responsible if the police (a government body that is charged with upholding the law within Australia and given the power to actively enforce the law) decide that it isn't worth their while to proactively target people breaching the copyrights of the people filing the case.

In my opinion the case should fall flat on its backside given the argument made by iiNet - they have actively, not passively, fought copyright by approaching and attempting to enlist the help of the police in enforcing the copyrights of any given person or company.

To suggest that an ISP should jump when AFACT says 'jump' is also horribly wrong. As iiNet has stated, shutting down a customer's internet connection at the whim of AFACT (or any anti-piracy body for that matter) completely undermines the right of that individual to a fair trial, making the titles for various articles related to this matter (speaking of the ones containing things such as 'judge, jury and executioner') extremely accurate.

It'll be a sad day for internet users Australia-wide if iiNet loses this case. Here's hoping that the judge residing over the case uses his head.

04 December 2008, 12:03 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Faustino (New user):

It is not feasible for an ISP to know in detail what is passing through its system, nor is it feasible for it to specifically block copyrighted material. Either we have the Internet, or we don't. Copyright-holders must find another way, however difficult, to protect their rights.

The purpose of copyright is to encourage invention and innovation through protecting the opportunity for the inventor to profit from his work. To the extent that illegal transmission and copying of copyrighted works reduces legal sales, the incentive to invent is diminished. Copyright serves the public (as well as the private) interest by increasing the flow of research and invention. However, the interests must be balanced, the costs of unworkable restrictions on ISPs would in my view exceed the private and public benefits of enforcing copyright by this method.

17 August 2009, 8:38 AM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Faustino (New user):

It is not feasible for an ISP to know in detail what is passing through its system, nor is it feasible for it to specifically block copyrighted material. Either we have the Internet, or we don't. Copyright-holders must find another way, however difficult, to protect their rights.

The purpose of copyright is to encourage invention and innovation through protecting the opportunity for the inventor to profit from his work. To the extent that illegal transmission and copying of copyrighted works reduces legal sales, the incentive to invent is diminished. Copyright serves the public (as well as the private) interest by increasing the flow of research and invention. However, the interests must be balanced, the costs of unworkable restrictions on ISPs would in my view exceed the private and public benefits of enforcing copyright by this method.

17 August 2009, 8:38 AM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Drewbie (New user):

A good number of ISP's across the country already notify and block, and even disconnect (in repetitive cases) their users if found to be downloading said copyright, P2P transmitted materials, and usually this is only in response to receiving a notice of infringement from the companies monitoring the P2P connections.

As a prospective FREE isp provider within our community, a packet size is defined by the administrator of the routers, usually 64Kbits, but this all depends on caching. If IINET is caching 700+mb files, then they have cut a few corners to save on infer-structure costs that they should not have, and should be rightfully sued.

06 October 2009, 10:06 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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