Aussie iPad likely to nudge $1,100

n1ck0 (New user):

250 MB NOT GB!!!

matt2112 (New user):

he said mb Quoting n1ck0:
250 MB NOT GB!!!

Phred (New user):

Once again, its good to see that the Free trade agreement with the USA is working to its fullest with Australia paying more for just about everything.

Pauly (New user):

us pricing doesnt take into consideration state taxes. us retailers sell more items hence economies of scale say they can sell for cheaper and then shipping fees.
Still doesnt make it any more than an oversized itouch, underpowered netbook and overpriced 7 years of bad luck if you press too hard on it.

apt.pupil (New user):

pfffft. $1099 for the ipad with a decent sized SSD and 3G capabilities?
no thx

Anonymousewiuu2945u389 (User):

I know I commented on a different article about not being interested unless it had a user-replaceable battery. Now, at this price, I don't think I'd be interested if it had a user-replaceable battery, RAM and HDD.

The iPad seems to be in the middle of nowhere-land in terms of sizing - too big to fit in a pocket, but without the screen protection of a keyboard if it is put into a bag. And to be honest, from what I've heard, the feature set is more iPod touch than proper computer, and netbooks are how much cheaper for how much more functionality?

TimR (New user):

The entry level model would suit me perfectly and at $649 I'll be getting one as soon as I can... At least, I was going to say that but then I looked at all the other comments and realised I was in the wrong place.

ps. By the way, the title for this article might just as easily have been "Aussie iPad likely to start at $649". Why did you decide to highlight the most expensive possible model?

pps The mention of the Free Trade Agreement in an earlier makes no sense to me. Apple Australia have to account for the exchange rate, import costs (Customs), freight, GST, administration, and the wages of the staff of Apple Australia including expensive support staff. I don't think there is any arbitrary Government tariff at either end which could be considered a breech of the Free Trade Agreement.

Laraine (New user):

In the wrong place? Yes, Tim, I know how you feel. It amazes me how many people vociferously condemn something they haven't seen, never mind tried out. I find it both hilarious and irritating, mostly hilarious. :-0

TimR (New user):

The entry level model would suit me perfectly and at $649 I'll be getting one as soon as I can... At least, I was going to say that but then I looked at all the other comments and realised I was in the wrong place.

ps. By the way, the title for this article might just as easily have been "Aussie iPad likely to start at $649". Why did you decide to highlight the most expensive possible model?

pps The mention of the Free Trade Agreement in an earlier makes no sense to me. Apple Australia have to account for the exchange rate, import costs (Customs), freight, GST, administration, and the wages of the staff of Apple Australia including expensive support staff. I don't think there is any arbitrary Government tariff at either end which could be considered a breech of the Free Trade Agreement.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting TimR:
The mention of the Free Trade Agreement in an earlier makes no sense to me.

That may be true but it was still a valid reference.


Quoting TimR:
Apple Australia have to account for the exchange rate

92c in the dollar, how does that explain Apples AU prices?


Quoting TimR:
import costs

probably less to import into AU than the US, the stuff is made in Asia remember.


Quoting TimR:
(Customs)

how long since you have imported/exported, customs charges generally covering as part of a totalised importation bill. And again there is no glaring difference between US and AU costs.


Quoting TimR:
freight,

cheaper to AU than US from Asia.



Quoting TimR:
GST

Yes that's 10% upon landing, but hang on what about the sales tax your not paying in AU?


Quoting TimR:
administration

I'll concede some economies of scale, but admin in AU over admin costs in US still does not explain the pricing.


Quoting TimR:
and the wages of the staff of Apple Australia

as opposed to the wages of staff of Apple US? Or has Obama decreed they'll work for free?


Quoting TimR:
including expensive support staff

yes you cover costs of expensive support staff, but wait for it you are not using (or imposing cost) on support staff on the other side of the planet. So still no explanation for the price gouge by Apple.


Quoting TimR:
I don't think there is any arbitrary Government tariff at either end

There isn't, the pricing is just a result of Apple gouging a mark for as much as it thinks it can get away with. Simple really. Free trade yeah right.

TimR (New user):

I see where the problem is. The term Free Trade Agreement, with the capitals, is to do with government tariffs imposed on imports. If I have this right, you are suggesting that Apple Australia's profit margin is also a factor. I believe you will find that this is not correct.
To address your point though. When you buy a product off Apple in the US, only Apple US makes a profit on it. When you buy a product off Apple Australia, both Apple US and Apple Australia need to make a profit on it. Now Apple Australia will be given a discount by Apple US as they are quite a large customer, but there is still a significant margin in there for the parent company.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting TimR:
I believe you will find that this is not correct.

Oh really? How exactly do you substantiate this claim?


Quoting TimR:
When you buy a product off Apple in the US, only Apple US makes a profit on it. When you buy a product off Apple Australia, both Apple US and Apple Australia need to make a profit on it.

Do what? Apple is Apple. Apple AU is a part of Apple INC. Apple corporate structure is no excuse for any price discrepancy. The cost of selling a US engineered Asian made product is no greater in Australia than it is in the US. End of the day it's Apple taking an inflated whack no matter how you look at it.


Quoting TimR:
Now Apple Australia will be given a discount by Apple US as they are quite a large customer

Discount? This get curiouser and curiouser!


Quoting TimR:
but there is still a significant margin in there for the parent company.

Yep charge what the market will pay, good business, still does not explain the taking of another gouge in non US markets.

By this reckoning Aussie Coal sold overseas should have another mark-up applied by Aussie Coal OS Inc, good business, eh?

Raindog shakes his head.

TimR (New user):

*sigh*
Sorry Raindog. Life's too short for me to be bothered bringing you up to speed.
I know these things because this stuff is precisely what I have done for a living for 28years.
Life will be eternally baffling for you if you will not make the effort to do your own research. I have given you some pointers. That's as much as I can be bothered doing.
You can lead a horse to water... *you look up the rest*
Best of luck.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting TimR:
Life's too short for me to be bothered bringing you up to speed.

Up to speed with what? The gentle art of wild speculation?


Quoting TimR:
I know these things because this stuff is precisely what I have done for a living for 28years.

Your the one eh? You've been the sole expert on the vagaries of import/export while the rest of us grew turnips? Right? It may be a complete surprise to you but maybe just perhaps a few more of us have the odd decade or two of experience moving stuff into and out of Asia, Europe and the US.


Quoting TimR:
Life will be eternally baffling for you

Not for me, I have no trouble discrimination fact from speculation and rumour.


Quoting TimR:
I have given you some pointers.

Phrenology is of no interest to me and i care little about the shape of your head.


Quoting TimR:
That's as much as I can be bothered doing.

Mostly because if you bother to put the numbers and percentages of your supposed causes up it would prove you wrong. So spin away.


Quoting TimR:
you look up the rest

I know the rest, I had already explained this to you, horses, water all that. Your second attempt got somewhere near the truth, quite different from your initial claims that a collection of outside influences somehow inflate Apple's AU pricing. As your second attempt goes part way towards explaining, any major price discrepancy is at the hand of Apple and nothing to do with the comparative costs of distribution into AU.

Postulate all you wish it will not change that reality!


Quoting TimR:
Best of luck.

Thanks all the same but I've never considered Luck a good basis for conducting any business.

TimR (New user):

This thread is now so old as to be effectively dead. So it is just you and me here Raindog.

The urge to educate is hard to resist even when the case is surely hopeless. So here's one more go.

Rather neatly, the answer you gave before this last one is a good place to start as it was was wrong in every particular.

Apple Australia is not Apple US.

www.asic.com.au

Name APPLE PTY LIMITED
ACN 002 510 054
ABN 46 002 510 054
Type Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date 02/08/1982
Next Review Date 02/08/2010
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office Sydney NSW 2000
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Despite some indications to the contrary, we are not a part of the US. For Apple to exist here they have to start a new corporate entity - Apple Pty Ltd. Despite all its shares being held by the parent company, it is an Australian Company, follows Australian laws, and pays Australian taxes. It is a for profit company. Once it has paid its taxes and kept what profit it needs to build new stores and cover all its other expenses it sends the rest of the profit back to the US.

It doesn't have to be this way. Instead of a subsidiary they could have just sold through resellers. Australian companies with Aussie shareholders - who would want to see a profit as well.

So, whether they use a reseller or a subsidiary, someone in Australia has to add a markup to maintain their infrastructure in Australia.

Now, it was Apple US that designed the iPad. Not Apple Australia. They expect to see profit from each machine sold. Their control of their receipt of these profits from their subsidiaries is much more direct and effective, from an accounting point of view, if they treat the subsidiary as a foreign company (which it is) and sell the the product to them a discount.

As an aside, you appear to be railing against the workings of a free market. Apple are free to charge whatever they like for their products and we are free to buy them or not as we wish. If you believe them to be over-priced then you won't be buying them - and I have no doubt you don't. Others though reach different conclusions. If your assessment is correct and you believe that other people will share your view then Apple will fail to sell these devices. They will have to lower their prices or withdraw the product. You will be vindicated. :-) At this point I can't help but remember the US$40 billion that Apple US have in the bank...

So, your final comment about Aussie Coal was spot on... in a way. If Aussie Coal has a subsidiary called Aussie Coal OS Inc then, when they ship coal to them, Aussie Coal OS Inc will indeed apply another markup as they on-sell it in their country. If Aussie Coal does not have an Aussie Coal OS Inc then they will be selling it to say, China Coal Inc, and they will put on a mark-up as they on-sell it throughout China.

The problem is that all these folks in the middle, the ones between the factory that makes the iPad and the arrival of the iPad in your, err let's say my, hands, have kiddies that want to eat and have a roof over their heads. The profit that you resent, the "gouge", is what keeps these folks going to work so that we can have these things. The other bit of profit in the US is what keeps the people who actually own Apple US happy so that the company can keep designing these things.

If things ran a simply as you seem to wish, there would be no motive left for the shareholders of Apple US to want their stuff sold in Australia. We would have to buy these things in the US and import them ourselves. I have seen people frustrated with the same things that frustrate you, try and do just that. It can be done, but it turns out to be far more trouble than it is worth. It is that discrepancy in value that represents the value that Apple Australia is adding.

(An interesting aside here is digital data... If the local company can add no value, what is their reason for existence? When it comes to buying digital books for instance, your arguments and passion become much more telling.)

So, the corporate structures that frustrate you are the logical consequence of us being in another country with our own corporate laws. If your iPad blows your leg off you have an Aussie corporate entity that is responsible and can be sued. You have a level of protection that would not exist if they did not. (Oh yes. One of their expenses is professional indemnity, which these days may be substantial. Imagine if 10,000 people claimed that their iPod sent them deaf. the potential damages would be ... large.)

Time for coffee. See what you make of that lot.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting TimR:
Apple Australia is not Apple US.

www.asic.com.au

Oh woo hoo an AU registration, should I be convinced now. Nah I don't think so. Apple AU couldn't sneeze without head office approval as you very well know. Hell those retards are attempting to sue Woolies for a not even similar logo, sure Apple AU is independent,and look I just saw flying pigs.


Quoting TimR:
As an aside, you appear to be railing against the workings of a free market. Apple are free to charge whatever they like for their products

And I'm free to highlight a blatant rip off, and to call your attributing the higher price to import and distributions costs a load of apologist spin.


Quoting TimR:
If you believe them to be over-priced then you won't be buying them - and I have no doubt you don't.

Well actually I seem them as comparatively WELL over priced.



Quoting TimR:
So, your final comment about Aussie Coal was spot on..

Of course I would not have said it if it was anything less.


Quoting TimR:
have kiddies that want to eat

And hundred of Chinese assembly workers desire bells for their bicycles, and starving Haitians would be glad of some simple shelter, equally emotive and equally unrelated.


Quoting TimR:
The other bit of profit in the US is what keeps the people who actually own Apple US happy

Apple US, were you on about Apple AU being so independent?


Quoting TimR:
We would have to buy these things in the US and import them ourselves.

Why in blue blazes would you buy an Asian made product from the US, that is just dumb on so many levels.


Quoting TimR:
If the local company can add no value, what is their reason for existence?

Now your going to Tell me Apple AU distribution Inc, adds value, right?


Quoting TimR:
So, the corporate structures that frustrate

doesn't frustrate me, I never buy through expensive over-hyped distribution channels. What's that you say? How would i get along without the aid of a local genius bar? Well the answer to that is fine actually.


Quoting TimR:
are the logical consequence of us being in another country

No they are the logical consequence of a bloated and expensive way to distribute. Sure you'll argue in the favour of the local operation,you've apple juniors braces to pay for right. But i have no desire to fund that unless you actually deliver me a good or service that i need and wish to pay for.


Quoting TimR:
If your iPad blows your leg off you have an Aussie corporate entity that is responsible and can be sued.

Were talking some consumer electronics here, not abseiling equipment, get a grip.


Quoting TimR:
You have a level of protection that would not exist if they did not.

And it reduces the risk of snake bite too. Exactly how many iSlabs do you predict will explode. 1 in 100, 1 in 10, hell with your current markups I'm ahead by the third on a direct import. Real value eh.


Quoting TimR:
Oh yes. One of their expenses is professional indemnity

And another of their expenses is trestle table and dexion shelving so we'd better add a mark up for that too, eh?

Your talking nonsense, don't all those costs apply in every market? The cost discrepancies are not there between major western countries, but the Apple has sure managed to install some price discrepancies. The cost justification does not wash.

agami (New user):

You do this all the time. You take a logical conglomerate statement, i.e. where someone illustrates how there are a bunch of variables that MAY contribute to the price discrepancy. Again, the attempt is to illustrate, but you take short statements out of the overall context and load them each with the burden of being the sole answer.

Examples:
Nobody reading TimR's comments, apart from you, expects that he singled out GST as the single culprit, just one of the contributing factors. Also, when TimR talks about Australian wages he expects that the reader understands it as a shortened statement about differences in the wages of Australian workers compared to those of their American counterparts; Full global manufacturing, logistics, and retail reports are not necessary.

There is nothing wrong when someone illustrates that the economics of distributing a consumer electronics device are multifaceted. PhD in economics is not required.

petert (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting agami:
You take a logical conglomerate statement


This is one of the frustrating aspects of these types of fora. One person bakes a cake and another tries to disassemble that cake into its component parts. It doesn't work because all you end-up with is crumbs! It is easy to focus on one word or one sentence in order to "prove" a point, in order to "prove" oneself correct, but it generally leads to the author being taken completely out of context. This is exactly what happened to Tony Abbott and his comments regarding female virginity only a few days ago. Steven R. Covey summed it perfectly when he said, "Seek first to understand before being understood".

These are typed fora. There is a limit to how much any person wants to write and there is a need to readers to often "read-into" what the author is saying. I, for, do not want to read a refereed and referenced dissertation for every posting! A critical deconstruction of an argument or comment requires more than simply commenting on every individual sentence outside of the conglomerated context in which they were written!

But there is an even more important issue. Quite often an author gives an opinion only to be told by someone else that their opinion is wrong. An opinion is just that - an opinion! It is not a fact. An opinion is a personal view or attitude. On the most part, opinions cannot be wrong (albeit that they might be ill-conceived or based on incorrect information or an incorrect understanding of information). Facts can be wrong (at which point they are probably not a fact, but that is quite a separate issue to discuss), but opinions are opinions.

Me In Oz (User):

Quoting petert:
It is easy to focus on one word or one sentence in order to "prove" a point, in order to "prove" oneself correct

You and agami are being very diplomatic ................. Or should we all just call "A spade, a spade"

Cheers :)

petert (Advanced Forumologist):

To be tongue in cheek, I should have ended my previous posting with the words, "But this is just my opinion" :-)

Me In Oz (User):

Quoting petert:
"But this is just my opinion" :-)

Are we allowed to have those? ;-)

Raindog (New user):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Are we allowed to have those?

Sure you are. Even when they are wrong. :>

Raindog (New user):

Quoting agami:
You do this all the time.

Then you should be used to it? But then it's apparent logical conclusions aren't something that comes naturally to you. Rather than put forward any valid point of view your prepared to stand by you prefer to piss and moan without offering a single valid contribution. But I digress (much like you have).


Quoting agami:
You take a logical conglomerate statement,

Logic? The 2 plus 2 equals 42.7 kind of logic? I've clearly debunked your claimed logic, both point by point and in it's totality.


Quoting agami:
where someone illustrates how there are a bunch of variables

Those variables were proposed as the major reasons for a disparity in pricing, that is logically not the case.


Quoting agami:
but you take short statements out of the overall context and load them each with the burden of being the sole answer.

No I offered brief descriptions of why each of those factors would have minimal if any influence on Australian pricing. And debunked each in isolation and as part of a combined proposal.


Quoting agami:
Nobody reading TimR's comments, apart from you, expects that he singled out GST as the single culprit,

Nobody except you see GST as being singled out, as you have already stated each factor was refuted. Nobody but you singled out GST in isolation. Clearly Pot, Kettle, Black, You Egg, Face.


Quoting agami:
Also, when TimR talks about Australian wages he expects that the reader understands it as a shortened statement about differences in the wages of Australian workers compared to those of their American counterparts;

Do what? The lack of detail enables any number of conclusions to be drawn, including your spurious references to US wages. What tiny influence would US wages have upon devices build by robots and assembly lines in Asian factories?


Quoting agami:
Full global manufacturing, logistics, and retail reports are not necessary.

Not that's fine you can go on believing myths about US wages, green cheese moon surfaces, yowies on bicycles and whatever else you wish. It wont change simple facts whatever you believe.


Quoting agami:
There is nothing wrong when someone illustrates that the economics of distributing a consumer electronics device are multifaceted.

Even if the conclusions are totally erroneous? I can see why your adverse to science of any kind. Thank you for you valuable contribution maybe next time you could even have something of substance to contribute.

Zig (New user):

For $1,099 I can buy any number of notebooks that can run Windows 7 or Linux.
I can install just about any software I please on it and customise it to my liking. It can have all sort of ports for just about every purpose.

I can even close the lid to prevent the screen getting damaged.

TimR (New user):

And that's what I love about free markets.
You do that and be happy and I'll buy an iPad and be happy.
Everyone wins.

apt.pupil (New user):

Quoting Zig:
For $1,099 I can buy any number of notebooks that can run Windows 7 or Linux.

According to Steve Jobs, why would you want to own a laptop? pc software is ugly, slow, and worst of all- able to be used on a variety of different devices


Quoting Zig:
I can install just about any software I please on it and customise it to my liking.

once again with the pc software. why would you want to?



Quoting Zig:
It can have all sort of ports for just about every purpose.
give it 12 months. the ipad will have a gen2 that adds in extra firewire, USB3, and eSATA ports


whats the bet that Steve Jobs owns a pc himself?

Laraine (New user):

Quoting apt.pupil:

whats the bet that Steve Jobs owns a pc himself?
He's not daft, whatever else he ma be.

Bentframe (New user):

Yea but AT&T also offers unlimited internet via the IPAD for $30, Something you'll never get from Optus or Telstra....for 7 years

Bentframe (New user):

I'm an American, dirty word I know, living in Sydney. I can't understand why all of you are arguing about why the IPAD is more expensive in Oz. EVERYTHING in Australia is more expensive. I buy shirts for $120 they are $30 in the US. Shoes for $150 that are $60 in the US. Pay $200 for $100 worth of groceries. A used 1999 BMW Z3, which I want, costs $8-10K in the US ans 22k here. Petrol is 40% more. Houses can be 3-4 times more.

I could go on and on. I would just think you are use to it by now. I think its a product of only having a 20 million person market and less competition vs 310 million people to sell to = volume. As far as the Ipads costing more in Oz, Apple probably just looks at how everything costs more in this market.

Now to the Ipad. I bought the 64GB Wi Fi model and its kills a netbook. For one its way faster than any normal netbook with the Atom processor. Everything happens instantly unlike a netbook. It kills a netbook for entertainment. Its weight half a kilo (1.6 lbs) and can slip into a travel bag and biggest of all its battery actually has lasted me 12 hours (not the stated 10) wasting video and surfing the web.

Now the so called flaws all of you mention - no flash, locked etc. All that means nothing with an app I use called Logmenin. Its let you access any other PC or Mac your own while you are ANYWHERE in the world! You can run applications, transfers files, send emails from your home computer from you Ipad etc. It works EXCELLENT too an looks just like your home computers desktop on the Ipad. It's like a window to my home computer that has 2000 GB of files on it.

No one seems to know about this way to use the Ipad because it renders most of the arguments why people don't want the Ipad pointless.

OK if you don't want a portable computer its not for you.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting Bentframe:
I'm an American, dirty word I know, living in Sydney.

Nah your ok it's not as if your a Taswegian or a Nu Zillenda. Keep the "let me tell ya somethings" to a minimum and you'll be fine.

As for things being far more expensive in NSW well that comes down largely to the efforts of one American at this time. Worked out how you pay for half a billion in costs for a pointless tramway that was never built? Worked out how you pay for half a billion on a lost ticketing system that's never struck a blow.

OK to be fair that particular American is just the last pilot in line of decade long voyage of destruction, and she's essentially a puppet of others. But wear the title carry the blame. Think of all those extra dollars on your iPad as the Kristina tax.


Quoting Bentframe:
For one its way faster than any normal netbook

albeit faster at a whole lot less tasks than can be achieved by a netbook.


Quoting Bentframe:
Its let you access any other PC or Mac your own while you are ANYWHERE in the world!

There in lies the flaw with iPad carting it ANYWHERE will be a real pain, it's not pocketable like a real phone, so if you have to cart a bag of tech junk why not cart something capable. Sore you can contact your PC from the next room but wouldn't life be quicker and easier if you just used that PC anyway?


Quoting Bentframe:
It works EXCELLENT too

I'm sure a legion of hackers are just salivating at the idea of the worlds less capable opening their PCs up to the outside world. Many may find more than just their iPads phoning home.


Quoting Bentframe:
No one seems to know about this way to use the Ipad because it renders most of the arguments why people don't want the Ipad pointless.

Not really, I'd suggest your argument demonstrates the iPad as yet another tack-on to real computing. iPad on it's own being pointless. iPad being less than transportable and when used remotely requiring bucket-loads of bandwidth. Entertainment toy sure it'll do that fine as for any useful applications, I'm yet to see it perform even one task better than the alternatives.


Quoting Bentframe:
if you don't want a portable computer its not for you.

If you want a portable computer iPad is likely to fall well short of what you'd really require.

Bentframe (New user):

Good arguemnts Raindog.

OK let me explain where the Ipad fits in better. I am going to Asia for vacation. I need to keep any eye on my work email and I want an internet source for maps, travel, finding restaurants, and everything you'd ever need to find.

* Sure you could do that on a Iphone, sort of, but you only need to use the screen to realize all those things are so much better on the Ipad. My Ipad easily fits in my suitcase or side bag. It may not seem like a big difference between a netbook but trust me the size and weight is if you're walking around with a messenger or travel bag.

* The maps are apps so you can use the Ipad to get around during the day as it has 10 hour battery that as I said works for 12 playing video. They have so many travel apps that basically are like tour guides to everything.

I'm going to go to Europe for 2-3 months next year. I have all my late night dorm or hostel entertainment in the Ipad (movies, songs etc) and it smokes the netbook in that dept, but then I also have all the travel apps and the access to my home computer.

I'm not too worried about my home computer being hacked. I don't have secrets to the Manhattan project on it - yes it could be a pain if I was hacked - but truthfully the odds of it being hacked are not major. I'm no expert of course but I sell IT solutions.

If all you are doing is work, then yet a netbook is better but for a lot of us we do 80% internet, games, music, movies...well entertainment and my cheap netbook can't touch the HD, instant / fast Ipad I have nor the experiance.

Trust me I am no fan boy. I have PC all the way but the Ipad user experience just seems right, like the next phase of computing and lets face it, it will be. Give it a few years they'll have Ipad's as powerful as desktops.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting Bentframe:
OK let me explain where the Ipad fits in better. I am going to Asia for vacation. I need to keep any eye on my work email

keep an eye on or process? Replying to email via hunt & peck on an onscreen keyboard would be a real pain. Sure it's fine for "Hi Mom" but anything more and iPad becomes wrong tool for the job.


Quoting Bentframe:
Sure you could do that on a Iphone, sort of, but you only need to use the screen to realize all those things are so much better on the Ipad.

I'd concur any smartphone is extremely limiting in interface, the difference is it's something you'll be carrying anyway not another piece of luggable space junk.


Quoting Bentframe:
My Ipad easily fits in my suitcase or side bag. It may not seem like a big difference between a netbook but trust me the size and weight is if you're walking around with a messenger or travel bag.

That depends entirely on which netbook you are comparing with with. And I'd agree the cheep ones with a power brick the size of well a brick soon fail on the transportable stakes.


Quoting Bentframe:
I have all my late night dorm or hostel entertainment in the Ipad (movies, songs etc) and it smokes the netbook in that dept

I'd agree as an entertainment device the iPad has a lead. But unless I'm very much mistaken most euro hotel rooms have TV's cable etc, and that $1100+ could have been better used in a foreign land to experience some of the sights night life etc.
If large chunks of your travel time are to be spent watching your own entertainment on a tiny screen why Europe, why not go to the Hunter? You can watch/listen to the same content and the wines are far superior.


Quoting Bentframe:
I'm not too worried about my home computer being hacked. I don't have secrets to the Manhattan project on it

You should be! If it's open you should be very vigilant about security. Hackers may not be too interested in you pictures of a fall vacation at Aunt Maude's, but they'll sure as hell see your PC as handy target for a bot net or a spam relay.


Quoting Bentframe:
If all you are doing is work, then yet a netbook is better but for a lot of us we do 80% internet, games, music, movies...well entertainment

If it's not work why all techno crud. Work often involves too many hours staring at screens. An ipod adds enjoyment while you do other things. An iPhone adds function to a device your likely carrying anyway. iPad is a new way of packaging a next gen portable TV, life is way too short for entertainment to be reduced to peering at tiny screens.


Quoting Bentframe:
Trust me I am no fan boy.

not something I'd have accused you of.


Quoting Bentframe:
I have PC all the way but the Ipad user experience just seems right, like the next phase of computing and lets face it, it will be.

Next phase of computing or next phase of space junk destined to reside in that large drawer of most desks proportioned to retain all those good idea at the time tech devices. End of the day iPad is not exactly portable or at best about as portable as a Notebook.
Weigh up the need of watching a tiny screen against the desire not to have to lug, recharge, secure and orientate a tiny screen and iPad soon loses it's shine.


Quoting Bentframe:
Give it a few years they'll have Ipad's as powerful as desktops.

It doesn't matter if you could give it the horsepower of a Cray, the iPad will still remain unsuitable for business computing and an annoyance to carry solely for the enjoyment of viewing a tiny screen.

agami (New user):

Quoting Raindog:
unsuitable for business computing and an annoyance to carry solely for the enjoyment of viewing a tiny screen.

Most netbooks have a "tiny" 10 inch screen, and you deem them suitable for business.

See Raindog, this is what happens when you dissect comments into individual sentences, you end up contradicting yourself.

I know you'll argue about the netbook's physical keyboard and a non compromise OS, but the point you so strongly made was about the "tiny" screen.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting agami:
Most netbooks have a "tiny" 10 inch screen, and you deem them suitable for business.

I do? When did I do this? Regardless of my approval however, better net-books would be more suitable for business than iPad. being more suitable is not a qualification as suitable.


Quoting agami:
See Raindog, this is what happens when you dissect comments into individual sentences

Are comments not a collections of individual sentences? Well the more rational ones are anyway!


Quoting agami:
you end up contradicting yourself.

Not at all any contradiction is in your interpretation. To be very clear iPad is unsuitable for business or any serious usage. There ya go no contradiction in that.


Quoting agami:
I know you'll argue about the netbook's physical keyboard and a non compromise OS

Yes the keyboard in particular, nothing as yet has surpassed a physical keyboard as a device for data input. I guess in the wash up it depends whether you wish to be a creator or a consumer of content.


Quoting agami:
but the point you so strongly made was about the "tiny" screen.

Indeed tiny screens are no good for serious usage. tiny screens suit smart-phones, the portability warrants the disadvantage. that said smart phones are no replacement for more dedicated devices.

The previous poster and others has suggested the real strengths of iPad was as an entertainment device. Do people seriously want to watch movies and other tat on a tiny screen when they are seldom out of range of a TV the size of a wall? In transit anything larger than a smart-phone will be a PIA, elsewhere larger and more readable screens will be available everywhere but the washroom. Perhaps that's the real market, iPad the ultimate toilet entertainment.

I don't doubt the slickness of the iPad, already we have seen the first waves of net-books and while we see lots be sold we don't see too many becoming essential tools or companions. Face it these things are still luggables. Space junk you need to carry, protect, secure and risk excess baggage for. Once the novelty wears off the benefit just isn't worth the lugging.

More often than not I can save carrying a full featured Notebook by pocketing a USB stick. Portable? If it doesn't fit into your pocket, it isn't portable and you'll soon tire of carrying it.

Bentframe (New user):

You wrote:

keep an eye on or process? Replying to email via hunt & peck on an onscreen keyboard would be a real pain. Sure it's fine for "Hi Mom" but anything more and iPad becomes wrong tool for the job.


*** The landscape mode keyboard is almost full size. Its a half inch (not sure in cetimeters) shorter than a full size Apple keyboard. Its larger than a netbook keyboard and works better than I expected. My work emails tend to be a few paragraphs not journals. In portrait mode you can type like a keyboard or with your thumbs like an Iphone.


Your wrote:

I'd concur any smartphone is extremely limiting in interface, the difference is it's something you'll be carrying anyway not another piece of luggable space junk.


*** Its the size of a spiral notebook. Its not a bother to take on vacation, carry in my messenger bag etc. If you go caving you would't bring it however its certainly more convenient than a netbook. Imagine being in a coffee ship and needed to look up info on the web and the process of pulling out and waiting for a netbook to boot up or pulling out a tablet and pressing on and blam its on. Sorry, its way thinner than any netbook unless you compare it to the Mac Airbook or whatever its called.

You wrote:

I'd agree as an entertainment device the iPad has a lead. But unless I'm very much mistaken most euro hotel rooms have TV's cable etc, and that $1100+ could have been better used in a foreign land to experience some of the sights night life etc. If large chunks of your travel time are to be spent watching your own entertainment on a tiny screen why Europe, why not go to the Hunter? You can watch/listen to the same content and the wines are far superior.


It cost me $699 not $1100. I had my sister buy it in the US and bring it to Vietnam when she was my guest for my annual sales trip. Well worth $699. Let's face it the exchange rates isn't that off now adays. I think its $0.93 AUD to 1.00 USD. In certain states in the US there is no internet taxes for anything you buy oneline. My sister's home state is one of them. I think you missed the point about Europe. Its not like I'd fly over there and watch videos on the Ipad all day. Don't you think you may have some long train rides at night where you can't see anything. Or be laying in bed in asome Eastern European country and not wating to watch an epsiode on TV of "Lotka the Violator" decide to watch a movie, or TV show on you apple before you go to sleep. Or plan your next day via the travel apps or web? On a nice sized screen on avery fast and responsive computer? I lugged my netbook on my trips before this. I think small computers are a must for planning whileon a trip or in a country and its not like I backpack -I have a suitcase on wheels. Besides, I want to go to Europe for 3 months and this is the perfect sized tool - not too small not too big.

Lastly you keep acting like it doesn't do anything. As mentioned I can log into my home computers, make excel documents via that link, type emails on my home email and attached documents to those emails and send. Transfer files to myself from my home computer while on the road and also see websites in flash through my home coputer browser since its a window. And it works really good, its not some akward expeirance. That part is the game changer for me now. Besides in the end, its not meant to replace a laptop for some people - until, like I said, its as powerful as a laptop and has a snap on /off keyboard for tablet to notebook conversion in the future - someone will do that.

Your wrote:

It doesn't matter if you could give it the horsepower of a Cray, the iPad will still remain unsuitable for business computing and an annoyance to carry solely for the enjoyment of viewing a tiny screen.


** I think you are being short sighted here. Think about it, if it was a powerful as a i7 desktop for example, and it was tablet then you could pair it with any wireless bluetooth keyboard and make it a full laptop when needed. Since it would be dual use and the tablet would be so much smaller, and lighter for on the go...it would matter to a lot of people.

Also your arguing as if the market for computers is for only your demo graphic. My Grandmother is dead and never used the web but I know she could have eaisly used an Ipad to read the paper or emails. Children would love these. I could use this in college paired with a bluetooth keyboard at the dorm - the virtual keyboard is fine for class notes. So it currently doesn't fit the total business man. That's not the only demographic and it will.

Bentframe (New user):

You wrote:


I'd agree as an entertainment device the iPad has a lead. But unless I'm very much mistaken most euro hotel rooms have TV's cable etc, and that $1100+ could have been better used in a foreign land to experience some of the sights night life etc.
If large chunks of your travel time are to be spent watching your own entertainment on a tiny screen why Europe, why not go to the Hunter? You can watch/listen to the same content and the wines are far superior.

I didn't pay $1100+ I paid $699 USD. There's no tax when you order online in the US from my home US state and my sister brought it to me when we met in Vietnam for my company trip.

Your main argument seems to be it won't replace the computer. I think you must think there's only a market for users like you. My Grandmother is dead and I know she never used the internet, as even using a PC would have seemed weird to her, but it would have been easy as pie to teach her to use the Ipad and read newspapers on it. You have that medium, you have the kids and college student medium. You have the house wife or anyone who's into entertainment medium. Wow that prob millions of possible users so maybe its a good idea.

One other thing, I think you'll see a device like this replace the laptop. Once a tablet is as powerful as desktops now, they just need to create a snap on and off keyboard so you can use it as a laptop or tablet on the go.

So again your very last statement was:

It doesn't matter if you could give it the horsepower of a Cray, the iPad will still remain unsuitable for business computing and an annoyance to carry solely for the enjoyment of viewing a tiny screen.

** Well last I looked a product didn't have to replace a business tool to be great. People said the Iphone couldn't do as much as a blackberry when it came out...now they have 25% of the market.

Lastly, like I said I can remotely view my desktop with log me in and I can use excel, my home computer's email and attach files from my home computers, transfer files to my Ipad. In the end its way more than you give it credit for and a hell of a lot cooler experience to use than some junky netbook.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting Bentframe:
I didn't pay $1100+ I paid $699 USD.

And for those Australian iPad aspirants without sisters passing through SEA, what will they cough up for their Apple giggle box?


Quoting Bentframe:
You have that medium, you have the kids and college student medium. You have the house wife or anyone who's into entertainment medium.

Mediums? Sadly missed relatives? What's all that got to do with anything. Sure people will cough up for a something new and shiny, but when the practicality of the thing sets in, it'll soon be residing on top of the Newton in that dark drawer reserved for items of past folly.


Quoting Bentframe:
One other thing, I think you'll see a device like this replace the laptop.

Muhahahahaha!


Quoting Bentframe:
People said the Iphone couldn't do as much as a blackberry when it came out...now they have 25% of the market.

And it still cannot replace the functionality of a Blackberry! That 25% share was all Blackberry replacement was it?


Quoting Bentframe:
Lastly, like I said I can remotely view my desktop with log me in

Something you can do from a net-book, a notebook, a hotel PC, your office workstation, or most Internet enabled smart-phones, this is hardly an exclusive plus point for iPad. Many have replaced their home computer with a powerful notebook (and hopefully a multi site back-up strategy), doing so is better for the environment, better for their wallet, and better in terms of user experience. Yeah I know it lacks the street cred of and gee whiz factor of viewing a wide-screen via an expensive connection and an iLump but it's infinitely more practical.


Quoting Bentframe:
and a hell of a lot cooler experience to use than some junky netbook.

cooler perhaps, more usable no, especially when compared to a more capable net-book or a fuller featured net-book. 25 ways to drag your text across a screen may be cool but they are far from being productive gain and likely to be of very fleeting entertainment value.
If you must lug it it's a good idea to lug something useful.

Bentframe (New user):

Raindog wrote:

And for those Australian iPad aspirants without sisters passing through SEA, what will they cough up for their Apple giggle box?

** They could use those online "address services" to order it from the US, sure shipping will cost but they'll save a little cash but this is a pain I know. Yea, in truth unless any one picks it up on holiday in the US they are SOL for the cheaper pricing. Seriously though, my earlier argument was that it was odd that people were shocked that it cost more here. In no way am I knocking Australia, I love the country but everything cost more here. I would actually be more surprised if a product didn't cost more here. Being shocked by consumer goods costs here is a way of life unless you have been here all you life and think it normal pricing but its a trade off for a wonderful country with great weather.

Randog wrote

Mediums? Sadly missed relatives? What's all that got to do with anything. Sure people will cough up for a something new and shiny, but when the practicality of the thing sets in, it'll soon be residing on top of the Newton in that dark drawer reserved for items of past folly

*** I like how you omit all my demographics and selectively chose one element of it. Reminds me of US Fox News. I said there is a market you are not considering of older people, kids, teens, college students, house wives and people who like to be entertained (Internet, Movies, TV Shows, Games, Books etc etc). So basically millions of people around the world. You ignore that demographic breakdown and focus on my dead relative comment and once again assume if its not made for business then it will fail. OK well lets see how well it sales then. If you're argument is it won't replace business computers, you are right. If you're argument is it will sell like the Newton, I've got some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

Raindog wrote:

Something you can do from a net-book, a notebook, a hotel PC, your office workstation, or most Internet enabled smart-phones, this is hardly an exclusive plus point for iPad. Many have replaced their home computer with a powerful notebook (and hopefully a multi site back-up strategy), doing so is better for the environment, better for their wallet, and better in terms of user experience. Yeah I know it lacks the street cred of and gee whiz factor of viewing a wide-screen via an expensive connection and an iLump but it's infinitely more practical.

** You just aren't getting how different it is to hold, use, and carry a 1.5 lb tablet vs a notebook or netbook. So much better. Who wants to search for hotels that provide computers or login thru a computer cafe in Asia to their VPN or LogMeIn home account on a foreign computer when they can/may steal you keystrokes? When with the Ipad you have all your movies and data. How about the convenience of pulling any map or travel app out of your side or messenger bag while you travel and standing on the street and look something up? The fact that you suggest pulling out a netbook on the street to look at a map, look up something on the web, etc vs pressing quick on button on the ipad and looking at a map suggests to me you haven't touched it only seen it on TV and not thought about it's practical uses. Using a phone for maps, or web, even out and about vs the Hi Def larger screen - no thanks, no contest, not comparable when you have used it. This thing is no burden to carry around so I don't know why you pretend it is = messenger bag, or backback and its lighter and has FASTER "on" access.

You laughed when I said a tablet could replace the laptop. I meant it and I didn't say the Ipad. I said in a few years a tablet will be as powerful as an current desktop I7 and then all someone has to do is design a snap on and off keyboard making it a tablet and laptop and then its no contest. When it gets to the point where a tablet can be a tablet or laptop but small and light like the Ipad who wouldn't want that?...besides you.


Raindog wrote:

cooler perhaps, more usable no, especially when compared to a more capable net-book or a fuller featured net-book. 25 ways to drag your text across a screen may be cool but they are far from being productive gain and likely to be of very fleeting entertainment value.
If you must lug it it's a good idea to lug something useful.


** Once again you pretend the entire world is comprised of business men. Its a good thing you aren't in marketing (I assume) but there's other types of users out there. Some tapped and untapped. We'll see final global sales. I doubt this will be a joke. We'll see if it becomes the Newton. Especially when version emerge that are more fully powerful computers. Yes, I'd prefer a full operating system etc. It will work with ANY blue tooth keyboard. Those things will come but its a great machine for what I use it for and much more fun and well, it seems like its what a computer interface should be.

If you're argument is the Ipad is not a work computer, you win. If you argument is it won't have a market besides fan boys, you are way off. I have always been PC not Apple.

Raindog wrote:

And it still cannot replace the functionality of a Blackberry! That 25% share was all Blackberry replacement was it?

*** Are you actually belittle a product that was introduced not many year ago and took over 25% of the smart phone market or became a world wide hit? Anyway you dissect the Iphone, like it or not, its was a phenomenal hit and your hate for it or Apple doesn't change that its a huge money maker. When the global market collapsed I saw Apple was $88 US a share and stupidly thought I should by a cheaper stock. A year and a half later its $247 a share. They do quite well (although its prob overvalued right now for sure).