Dell releases world’s first Moblin netbook

todd_h86 (Cornerstone member):

Didn't Dell and others already try this? What happened? O, people bought the Windows version anyway....

Me In Oz (Cornerstone member):

Quoting todd_h86:
O, people bought the Windows version anyway....

LOL! Every few years there's strong rumours that Linux is taking over the world and MS are going to go belly-up, so a few manufacturers jump ship to test the waters. But inevitably people will always stick with something they know like Mac & Win OSes.

BrownieBoy (User):

Quoting Me In Oz:
But inevitably people will always stick with something they know like Mac & Win OSes.

That's fine. Let 'em buy what they want. And they can have all the viruses and bloat and numerous other problems that comes with Windows, and can carry on thinking that everybody shares those same problems with them.

And let me buy what I want.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
people will always stick with something they know

A behaviour also common in sheep. If you never leave your comfort zone you can't ever expect to advance.

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Quoting todd_h86:
Didn't Dell and others already try this? What happened? O, people bought the Windows version anyway....

No. Moblin has never been offered before, and Dell still offer various machines with Ubuntu or freeDOS installed.

MSI had high return rates for their linux netbooks - I'm not even sure what distro it was.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting AndyCee:
MSI had high return rates for their linux netbooks


I suspect MSI also had a high return rate for their Windows ones too... They seem to for every other product they make.

Aubrey (Advanced member):

I understood that DELL was doing pretty well with Ubuntu preinstalls in countries where they are actually available (despite the reported 375% return rate on Linux netbooks, which still seems to get a run here on APC).

This is actually a new version - using Intel's Moblin technology with Ubuntu - which means it must actually boot to a full desktop 3.5 seconds before you actually press the power button.

I don't know (or care) whether DELL is actually commiting to a long-term Linux line or whether this is a strategic move to give them some more leverage with MS in OEM deals. But it does seem that many more manufacturers are becoming OS-neutral and willing to at least explore the open-source side of the market.

I'd rate that as a win for consumers too. But I do like choice and believe that competition drives innovation.

Disclaimer: I bought a DELL Latitude 2100 netbook with Ubuntu preinstalled and have been very happy with it - despite immediately reformatting the HDD and installing an updated and customised version of the OS.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Aubrey:
But it does seem that many more manufacturers are becoming OS-neutral and willing to at least explore the open-source side of the market.


They have to. If customers are asking for it, and able to get it elsewhere, you're stupid to ignore their requests. I'm not that into marketing or retail, but even I know that.

Quoting Aubrey:
Disclaimer: I bought a DELL Latitude 2100 netbook with Ubuntu preinstalled and have been very happy with it - despite immediately reformatting the HDD and installing an updated and customised version of the OS.


I did the same with a 10 inch Eee. Imported it from USA to get the Linux version for 2 reasons: First to get the SSD model, and second to avoid it counting as a sale of Windows. Promptly removed the crap Linux distro supplied and installed the latest Ubuntu.

RobSixpack (New user):

I bought one too. It's a great little machine. I ditched standard ubuntu for mint after few days but because it came with linux, I was confident there would be no hardware problems. I wish some of their higher end machines had the same linux option. Maybe I will have to get my next machine from ZAReason.
Rob

stefcep (Frequent poster):

A major issue with ubuntu netbooks is that probably the most-used third party technology Adobe Flash in Firefox uses on average about 300-400% the CPU time that Flash in Windows does. It slows the machines down and is probably not great for the life of the CPU either.

Tony23 (User):

Not sure how much this is an Ubuntu problem. Whenever I hit flash at work (IE) and at home (Firefox in Ubuntu) then there's a good chance of an application slowdown or in the case of IE - freeze. At home I can minimise this by add ons which only start flash for content i want, not fluff. At work it's a pain. I think it's likely the problem is flash.

For the record I got Adobe PDR reader off my system very quickly because it was bloated - may be an adobe problem generally?

stefcep (Frequent poster):

@Tony23.

Not sure if its general Adobe issue, but viewing any flash content in a web page online with Firefox in Ubuntu 9.04 causes my CPU usage to spike to 40-50% ( On a C2D @ 2.4 Ghz with 4 Gig RAM), but CPU usage is well under 10% with same hardware and same page on Vista and XP. Tested it on 4 other machines, all of similar specs and same result. Stopping the Flash content sees the CPU usage plummet immediately. So its definately Flash doing it.

My partner plays a poker Flash flame game online, and she noticed her CPU temperature got to 62 deg, usually its at 35 deg C,and the laptop fan was on full blast. The CPU was at 45%- for 2 hours staright. She didn't know any better. Luckily she turned it of when she noticed a "burning smell". She's back to XP now, we're not gonna risk her laptop. Adobe/Linux community need to fix this, Flash is a necessity these days for the average user, and I now see this issue as the number one issue that they need to fix. Until it is, Linux won't get any hard drive space on my machines, which is a pity because otherwise Ubuntu 9.04 has been a joy to use.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

The CPU should not be even getting close to overheating at 45%... Even for many hours. If it is, there's either a design problem or something foreign caught somewhere in the air ducts.

Also, you don't say what Flash plugin you were using. Was it Adobe's or an open source one? What version? Perhaps installing a different one would have saved formatting the computer...

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
The CPU should not be even getting close to overheating at 45%..

If only that was true in all cases, but sadly there are some appalling pieces of design out there. From a manufacturing point of view an adequate fan and heatsink will likely cost more than the cpu.
The punters chase CPU clock speed like no tomorrow so the easy answer is big CPU inadequate cooling, and some software drivers that underclock and otherwise protect the CPU. There are may too many Notebooks out there that will throttle down every time you try to make the work.

It's bad hardware design masked by some quick software kludges. If the machine cannot manage it's own thermal runaway with relying on software it's a piece of junk, and there is plenty of that junk out there.

It's not the fault of the aftermarket OS, it's just the nanny software that in reality runs a fast CPU as slow CPU, is missing. You could no doubt find something in Linux to slow the machine back to the performance it's design limits it to.

Tony23 (User):

Quoting Raindog:
It's not the fault of the aftermarket OS, it's just the nanny software that in reality runs a fast CPU as slow CPU, is missing.


Hi Raindog, don't think that's the case in what I was banging on about - I don't think it is the OS, I think it's flash being programmed poorly. It happens at work (HP laptop, dual core), and at home (quad core cpu in a dell rig). In so many websites I go to flash is just a complete disaster. It is also inconsistent in it's crappyness. I hate flash like there is no tomorrow. As a user, the implementations of it are just woeful; I don't know why having never done anything in it. But it seem strange that a cpu core can be maxed out 100% the moment flash comes along...and then I end up having to kill firefox.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Tony23:
Hi Raindog, don't think that's the case in what I was banging on about

Maybe so but it is the case with what others were banging on about. In short 2 problems. 1st as you have correctly mentioned Flash can consume a ridiculous amout of CPU for doing very little. Problem 2 is with any machine that is incapable of operating without overheating regadless of CPU load.


Quoting Tony23:
I don't think it is the OS

Your quite correct, it's not the OS for either problem.


Quoting Tony23:
I think it's flash being programmed poorly

Exactly, but whilst that will likely cause most machines to crawlt to a halt, those same machine should be able to cope without excessive temperature rise.


Quoting Tony23:
In so many websites I go to flash is just a complete disaster.

Eye candy for the first few visits and a time and CPU wasting annoyance for subsequent visits to the site. It's why so many end up using stripped down browsers that bypass the stuff as best they can.


Quoting Tony23:
But it seem strange that a cpu core can be maxed out 100% the moment flash comes along...and then I end up having to kill firefox.

Flash is just one culprit, there are a multitude of other equally poorly coded web apps that can bring almost any OS to its knees. Auto updaters coming immediately to mind.

Aubrey (Advanced member):

Adobe Flash is a known pig on Linux but I haven't heard of it being quite as bad as this thread suggests.

Gnash is an open source replacement for Flash that is much easier on CPU cycles but it struggles to stay up-to-date in terms of compatablity with the "latest and greatest" Adobe version.

Unfortunately, many major web deployers of Flash eye-candy upgrade their requirements in lock-step with Adobe releases of new Windows versions - probably because of security issues for Windows users (there certainly don't seem to major differences otherwise)- leaving Gnash users unable to access the content.

Despite Adobe's gestures towards the free-and-good side over the past few years, this is the reason freetards have a love/hate relationship with the company - often expressed as uncontrollable rage and furniture throwing.

Strangely, it may actually be Microsoft that rescues this situtaion with its Silverlight product that seems much more open to collaboration with its free equivalent (Moonlight) at least for now. I would not be counting on a "final" open solution from them, but it may make Adobe lift their game.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Aubrey:
Flash is a known pig on Linux but I haven't heard of it being quite as bad as this thread suggests.

It's a know pig on the average corporate Windows box too. As the impact of various issues ship as a whole Flash is a technology that remains flawed. While many of the problems are more a result of poor developer implementations rather than an ever present flaw, these issues in the wash-up still remain essentially Flash issues. A technology so prone to developer misuse is essentially lacking and demonstrates the lack of efforts placed into implimentation testing.


Quoting Aubrey:
Gnash is an open source replacement for Flash that is much easier on CPU cycles but it struggles to stay up-to-date in terms of compatablity


Gnash is very much a me-to emulation, a solution which is essentially copy-cat will always be destined to lag behind.


Quoting Aubrey:
Strangely, it may actually be Microsoft that rescues this situtaion with its Silverlight product that seems much more open to collaboration with its free equivalent (Moonlight) at least for now.

I disagree, the only long term solutions will be truely collaberative and stardards based solutions. These offshoot and Cul-de-Sac developments essentially ensure that a large number of interoperability issues. Software does not need to branch of in diverse directions. The user perception is of software that can interact across the widest possible range of platforms and environments, software that attempts to branch from rather than enhance the general momentum will always be problematic.

stefcep (Frequent poster):

I agree that laptops these days have poor cooling design, but it definately is flash on Linux that clocks up the CPU usage to about 50% and the temperature shoots into the 50-60 deg C if I let flash play long enough. I am using Flash 10 on Ubuntu 9.04 and I had gnash but many sites simply wouldn't show the flash content. But not in vista, rarely do i get anywhere near 10% CPU usage, on the same site on the same hardware. I don't blame open-source world for this, but its a problem that carries a significant hardware risk. And no its not just me, there are plenty of other users reporting the same issue.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting stefcep:
but its a problem that carries a significant hardware risk

Then that hardware is poorly designed and unfit for use!

That particular combinations of application software and OS use excessive resourses is a problem without question. That a machine can damage itself performing its intended purpose is an entirely different problem!

If any machine cannot operate for extended periods at or near its rated capacity, within realistic temeperature and environmental conditions, then that machine is flawed by design!


Quoting stefcep:
And no its not just me, there are plenty of other users reporting the same issue.

And there is plenty of other flawed hardware out there. If your quad core wonder-book has to be cyled down to celeron levels to survive it's not really yhte machine it purports to be.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

I totally agree.... Even laptops should be able to comfortably run on a table at 100% CPU for hours on end. If they can't, there is either a hardware fault (like dust-bunnies in the air ducts) or a design problem.

My Asus dual core Turion laptop copes with 100% CPU for hours on end fine. My biggest heat concerns are about whether the lining of the laptop bag can deal with it.