Harvey Norman slams computer makers over warranty policies

Dan Warne20 September 2006, 4:27 AM

Australia's biggest computer retailer, Harvey Norman, has criticised Apple over its restrictive warranty policies. It also says in general, computer industry warranty policies fall short of what's required by Australian law.


Computer makers and distributors have such restrictive product return policies that retailers would breach the Trade Practices Act if they followed them, major retailer Harvey Norman has charged.

The retailer’s General Manager of Computer Merchandise, Rutland Smith, said manufacturers often have worldwide warranty policies that fall well short of what’s required by Australian law.

“They’ll try to limit D.O.A. [dead on arrival, or faulty when purchased] periods to a specified time like 7 or 14 days, or they’ll try to put in place different hurdles for us to get a credit note for the faulty product.”

“The Trade Practices Act says that if a product is not fit for the purpose for which it is sold, then the customer is entitled to their choice of refund or repair, and there is no time limit.”

“These rights also pass across to the retailer - we have the same rights against a vendor.”

Some vendors make it difficult for retailers to get their money back after a customer has returned a faulty product, Smith said.

Smith named Apple Computer as a particularly obstructive vendor when it came to warranty terms, and said this was one of the reasons Harvey Norman did not carry a full range of Apple hardware.

Harvey Norman had repeatedly asked Apple to change its iPod return process which instructs customers to return faulty iPods directly to Apple by post.

“We’ve instructed our stores to resolve problems in accordance with the Trade Practices Act and handle stock problems with Apple at a later date. But so far we’ve found Apple to be particularly uncooperative.”

Apple Computer Australia disputed Smith’s claims. Spokesperson Fiona Martin said “Apple does nothing that prevents any retailer from meeting their obligations under the Trade Practices Act. The Australia Post facility is available for customers that prefer to send their iPods directly to Apple. That doesn't mean they can't take them into a retailer for a refund, which Apple will in-turn provide to the retailer.”

Smith said, “They don’t prevent us from offering a full refund to customers, they just make it very difficult for us to get a refund from them later,” he said.

Smith said Apple was able to be arrogant over its policies because no major retailer could afford not to sell the iPod.

But Apple’s margins were so low on many products that Harvey Norman wouldn’t make money selling them given the additional cost of subsidising the cost of customer returns.

“Apple has consistently undervalued what the channel does for its product,” Smith said.

“It’s simple business: if it costs X dollars to market the product and put it on the shelf and the margins are less than X dollars, it’s simply not commercially viable.”

“We have over 100 vendors, with over 100 different returns policies. All of our major stores have at least one dedicated staff member devoted to obtaining returns authorisations from suppliers. On that very rough analysis it costs us millions of dollars a year.”

“I should add, that’s an expense we are prepared to bear in the name of good customer service.”

Rutland said despite its market power in Australia, Harvey Norman was not generally in a position to influence computer makers’ warranty terms.

“We’re a large organization in the Australian market, but Australia is a small part of the international marketplace. Most of those product return policies are driven out of international offices. Yes, we can negotiate strong pricing, but a lot of these types of policies apply worldwide.”

Smith made the comments during an interview with Dan Warne at the MediaConnect Influence 2006 forum. APC attended the conference as a guest of MediaConnect.


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Peter B:

I agree with HN for a change, the manufacturers warranties in Australia because of the laws compelling us the retailer to be responsible for the product returns should be different than other coutries where this is not the case. it is us the retailer who gets the flak not the manufacturer.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

joe:

hi,it seems to me that apple should pull its head in.i always thought that a faulty product was to be returned to the dealer and the dealer would receive compensation from the manufacturer.SHAME ON YOU APPLE.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

LDR Hawke:

Obviously, Mr. Smith simply wants Apple to give him bigger profit margins, and the warranty issue is all fluff.

No one is demanding his company sell Apple products, it his companies option. I imagine iPods draw a lot of customers into Harvey Norman stores and those same customer also buy other products while shopping.

I have a feeling Mr. Smith's boss would be very unhappy if Apple said they would no longer sell to the Harvey Norman Apple products because of Mr. Smith running down the Apple Co.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Craig:

Sheeze Joe, did you read the same article as me or have they added to it?

"The Australia Post facility is available for customers that prefer to send their iPods directly to Apple."

Given that the last two times I've brought stuff from Hardly Normal (Belkin products) I got the complete ass run around from them I'd be happy to see Apple's direct support policy. By the way Belkin ended up replacing both products in 48 hours while HN said "out tech will be able to look at it next week for you and let you now what we can do" and don't even ask what happened when I asked HN to supply a replacement unit....

LDR's comments seem like they're more on the money, probably HN want to sell more Apple product and have more margin... Interesting how this comment comes after the release of updated iPods and movies on the iTunes Store... which reminds me gotta go buy myself a new iPod from the Apple Online Store...

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Terry:

LDR is correct. I went to HN to purchase only an iPod and then was attracted to a kitchen appliance which I then also bought.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

joe:

hi,ok craig i see where youre coming from and i totally agree but i have heard of a lot of people that have had problems with apple with regard to warranty work and i think its an area that apple can improve on.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Term and Condition Fighter:

This article brings out three problems. The most obvious one to be Apple’s warranty policy which is well know both in and out of the computer industry. It is so bad to the extent that I believe ACCC or Fair Trading have a section for ipod.

Second problem goes to Harvey Norman. Like other people mentioned, ipod help to drive traffic and most retail outlet can’t afford not to sell ipod. The problem is most Harvey Norman is changing their Return Policy. (RP) For example they don’t accept returns unless it is faulty, credit note instead of refund, etc. Before I will pay that extra for Harvey knowing that if I can’t get something to work or there is compatible issue, I will surely get my money back. That is no longer the case with Harvey. So yo may as well get it off Apple’s web site.

The worse problem comes down to the good old computer hardware industry terms and condition. Like: no refund credit only, 7 days return period, etc. I use to work in the industry so I know why they are like that but I don’t know who started all this crap. Seriously from a customer’s prospect, this totally unacceptable. So if I buy an ipod and it breaks on the 8th days I suppose to send it back to Apple for RA instead of bring it back to the shop for a refund? There is a case published on APC a few months ago which is against JB Hi-Fi. It was concluded that it was JB Hi-Fi’s responsibility to give you a new one. In that case it was a month after purchase.

My advice to you guys about IT hardware product are:
1) Always prepare for the worse and prepare to take the retailer to CTTT which cause you $31 but it usually work.
2) Before you buy, read the site’s or shop’s terms and condition especially regarding the returns section.
3) When something do go wrong, make sure you ask for a refund. You will often hear crap like: “Oh we run on a very low margin”, “We will fix that up for you quickly”, “Can you check this, can you check that”. If you want them to repair for you that’s fine but this usually take the longest, minium two weeks. If you like the shop you can ask for the credit. However cash refund is always the best because you can take you money back and buy it somewhere else. Also the law say it is you choose which the way to go. (repair, credit, and refund) not the retailer.

I think the government have to look into laws to enforce return conditions for both B2B and B2C transactions. One reason we have all this crap is because IT hardware suppliers trying to close the sales contract with retailers as soon as possible. Suppliers started all these 7 days and credit only crap and the retailer are trying to pass that strategy on to customer. Retail often asks you to be an understandable customer, but as a customer, I don’t really care about you margin and the rules between you and your supplier. I just want my money back.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mike:

I had similar problems dealing with Harvey Norman when my $5000 Toshiba Qosmio laptop died one week after the one year manufacturers (voluntary) warranty expired. HN tried to absolve themselves of responsibility with stating that i didn't purchase an extended warranty and my only hope was with Toshiba. They quickly changed their attitude when i told them that the ACCC had advised me that a laptop or merchantable quality costing $5000 shall be exptected to last not less than 5 years. Out of curiosity, i contacted Toshiba, who immediately arranged a courier to pick up my laptop for repair and returned it to me one week later. So why was it so difficult for HN to organise this? Perhaps HN should sort out their own warranty shortcomings before pointing the finger of blame at the computer manufacturers.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

¿Que?:

It is interesting to read about problems with Harvey Norman. I've had the opposite experience - incredibly good customer service. In the past couple of years, I've had three problems with various laptops. HN immediately accepted them and arranged for repairs. They didn't even charge me the transport fees to and from the service group (as they could have done). I live in Armidale, NSW and the store is owned by a franchisee who works in the business. Maybe that's the difference?

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Term and Condition Fighter:

Like I said in the previous post, this warranty, terms and conditions problem starts from the top. Manufacturers give distributors bad terms, distributors give retails bad term and finally we got bad terms from retailers. My point was it is not acceptable as an online shop terms, but it is even more unacceptable as a Harvey Norman terms. Harvey charge an extra 20% on their margin compare with prices you find on price bots like staticice.com.au. That margin should have covered their returns. I shop in a few Sydney stores which they use to do straight refunds. That is no longer the case.

To be fair customer is also part of the problems where they will bargain out to the last cent hence keep pushing down the margins. However this is human nature. I have shops bargain 50 cent out of a $14 floppy from me when I was working at a distributor.

In my opinion it is important that consumers are protected because they are the people that are driving the retail business. In Europe, there are regulations in place when a sale is not conducted face to face, i.e. internet, mail, phone, etc. The customer has 7 days to decided wether to keep the goods or not (from the arrival day). These are the kind of regulations we need in Australia.

Oh another suggestion when you shop online, make sure the shop is at lease in your state and they publish their physical address and phone number. Buying interstate and from shops only publish a PO Box or email address is really bad idea. Trust me been there, done it. It is so not worth it

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Really annoyed student:

I have not ever purchased at HN but I am currently 'negotiating' with Apple in regards to a faulty computer. Never in my life have I experienced such disregard and contempt. Unfortunately my experience reveals that the culture of 'grab the money and run' is apparent throughout the company, from the retailers up to the executives. I wish I had never bought an Apple.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

joe:

hi, as i said earlier, the law states that you take the defective item to the place of purchase (HARVEY NORMAN)and they have to make good.they(HARVEY NORMAN) do not have the right to fob you off and send you to APPLE.if they do, you go straight to the department of FAIR TRADING and let them handle it.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

jess:

just a little story i purchased an ipod mini from harvey norman and after about a month it had malfunctioned.. i went back to harvey norman asking for a replacement but told me they could not exchange it and sent me off to an apple distributor.

i was disgusted to have to go out of my way to locate an apple shop.. absolute disgrace. i have now been back to apple four times to get my ipod replaced.. terrible design for such a well known product globally.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Ken:

I hear what you are all saying, but as a person involved with IT retail industry, let me tell you that I have tried to keep the customer satisfied. I am left holding over $20,000 worth of faulty stock that the IT distributers won't take back because it was over 7 days, won't authorise an exchange because it wasn't sent to them first etc..

So don't always blame the retailer, Apple is by far the worst to deal with, we try but with margins of less than 9% from Apple we tend to be losing money.

The only winner in all of this is Apple. Don't buy iPods. Buy any other brand of mp3 player and get better quality at a better or equivalent price.

Creative, iRiver, iAudio, Samsung are all superior product.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Anonymous:

Having spent time on both sides of the counter, I think the main issue here rests with the retailers. They have much more clout than individuals. Large retailers have in the past taken brands off the shelves. They can do it again.

Also, retailers should negotiate return policies with their suppliers prior to ordering. I do it to protect myself, and my customers.

It's strange that HN cry that they are forced by manufacturers and suppliers. Australia's largest retailer being pushed around by some not so large companies. Yeah, right.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Anonymous:

I've read some bad press for HN and warranty but had no problem with them. No big ticket items but I've returned 4 products with no hassle and 1 minor niggle. A Belkin usb2 hub would not work with my PC. When I returned it, the tech plugged it in and it worked. He refused to refund but the manager agreed to exchange it for a D-Link hub which was ok with me. As for Apple though, A*holes! I bought an Ipod (not from HN) and went through the whole Apple wringer. Basically ripped off $400 and my blood boils just hearing the word 'Apple'. If a ever get within range of Steve Jobs, I'm gonna punch that (I'm tryin' real hard to be polite) mother****** in the face.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

FiretrUCK:

I have been on both sides of the computers retail industry. Warranty is a bitch. If a product is returned to the place of purchase, it needs to be inspected and or tested to see if the user has killed it or if it has died or become faulty in a way that is covered by warranty. Then it has to be sent to the vendor, who will then test the component and either issue a replacement or credit note. I have had many No Fault Found products that the customer has stated as faulty just because they do not read the instructions or load the right drivers etc.
The customers usually drive the prices of components right down to the barest margins but then expect the highest level of service. It is easy to walk around to a few shops to get the best price...instead of finding out the best service....and then bitch that the warranty takes too long or that they have to contact a service centre etc.
Customers have rights.....but the customer is not always right.
Retailers can not just replace any product that a customer returns....What happens when the external hard drive they returned is tested by the manufacturer and it is found that it was dropped.....or that a power surge killed their PC. Not all warranty is clear cut and with the slim margins which are driven by the consumer, the retailer has to be careful and dilligent when dealing with warranty claims.
I once had a customer return a PC that was crashing. I opened it and found it totally covered is dust and fluff. After cleaning it out and running some dianostics which lasted over an hour, it checked out OK. I charged the customer 1 hour labour and he refused to pay stating that the shop had not told him he had to keep the computer clean and that it was under warranty. Well I gave him the choice....pay or go home without the PC. The margin on the original purchase was under $100 so he was not about to get any special treatment compared to some of the customers who developed a relationship with the shop and were willing to pay a fair amount and get much better service.
You get what you pay for.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Anonymous:

As an ex employee of another retailer group I can confirm that this is true. Many suppliers make it ever increasingly difficult for retailers like Harvey Norman to get their money back on faulty product after refunding the end user. It really ticks me off that large corporations like Apple forget about the Retailer who makes them the money. Having said that I will say companies like Lexmark have a replacement policy on faulty items, whereby either the end user or the retailer can arrange the replacement with Lexmark.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Anonymous:

I have dealt with apple product returns before and i can say it is very easy. All i did was ring up apple au and say my ipod wasn't working properly. they said the i could either post the ipod in or take it into the city (can't remember where)

I got my mum to take it into the city next day (without any forms)and i had a new ipod that very same day

29 February 2008, 8:35 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

bill:

your lucky, my ipod had a dint in the back of it and i was told that it had been dropped and i couldn't get a replacement

29 February 2008, 8:35 PM (2 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Bruce (New user):

As if Harvey Norman can comment on Australian Law. It's stores break Australian Consumer Law and don't seem to mind. Maybe they should just read the laws themselves and base their business on working within it like others like KMart etc.

20 April 2008, 3:54 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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