How Apple could crush Dell

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Dan Warne18 February 2007, 3:48 AM

Imagine a Windows PC where all the correct drivers could be automatically installed after a fresh Windows install with a single software tool. You've just discovered Apple's secret weapon in its war against Dell.


What is it about the PC industry? Within a single laptop model number, it's not uncommon to find five completely different hardware configurations.

It appears PC makers are obsessed with cost savings at the expense of everything else.

An Ethernet chip that's 20c cheaper here for the discount-retailer version of that laptop. A sound chip that's $1.00 cheaper there for the corporate version.

The result of this short-sighted thinking is thousands of man-hours down the track as users and support staff try to identify the right drivers for a system when it comes time for an operating system reinstall.

For example, look at this list of drivers available for the Toshiba Satellite M30.

Should I download the wireless LAN drivers for the Intel Pro 2100 chipset, Intel Pro 2200 chipset or Atheros WLAN chipset?

For some godforsaken reason, Toshiba has decided to use three entirely different wireless chipsets within the same model number of Toshiba Satellite.

Of course, branded system manufacturers do supply a system restore disc which has all the drivers preinstalled into a copy of the OS that came with your laptop.

But inevitably, we mere mortals lose these discs and can't be bothered paying $40 for Toshiba/Dell/HP/whoever to send us another one.

Apple's secret weapon

All the coverage of Apple's Boot Camp dual-boot installer has revolved around the fact that it makes it possible to run Windows on a Mac. Fair enough, that's the sexy, killer feature.

But there's another powerful side to it that the press has barely focused on: the all-in-one driver installer.

Apple is applying its integrated hardware-and-software model to running Windows via Boot Camp.

One install CD has all the drivers you need no matter what model of Intel-Mac you're using.

It's downloadable from Apple's website, and it doesn't require you to make any choices about which flavour of Intel-Mac you're using: it senses the hardware and figures it out for you.

Admittedly, the current betas of Boot Camp are far from perfect -- probably by design, since Steve Jobs wants to sell upgrades to Mac OS X 10.5 with the final version built-in.

In the long run, maintenance of Boot Camp will become a major pain for Apple, because it will inevitably have to manage 20 different wireless chipset drivers as its hardware engineers move to cheaper or newer designs. Already Apple's "Airport Extreme" brand has a generous handful of different chipsets in use.

But unlike every other PC maker's drivers, it's Apple's problem to sort out the driver mess, not yours.

As an Apple customer, you just get one driver CD that does it all.

Dell's missed opportunity

Arguably, Dell is Apple's biggest competitor: it has made buying a PC a beautifully smooth process.

But Dell's achilles heel is customer service. It has openly admitted on its blog that it has a long way to go and that its call centre staff need better training and resources at their fingertips to help customers.

Imagine how the volume of calls to Dell support could be slashed if there was one single downloadable tool which would install all the right drivers onto any Dell PC.

Yes, it'd be nearly impossible for Dell to do that now given the enormous variety of configurations of Dell PCs out there, but it's something that Dell could start doing from some point forwards.

Perhaps you might even like to vote for this idea at Dell's new IdeaStorm site to encourage Dell to consider making a single driver CD/DVD for all Dell machines.

However, if you're looking to buy the best Windows machine out there, the simplest solution might just be to buy a Mac.


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Crazydiamond:

Well,

As a long time (15 years at least) mac user - I bought a dell e1505 as a second computer/notebook. My old eMac is still my prefered computer for most things - and I will get an intel iMac in the future - but the E1505 dell notebook was much cheaper than the mac offerings - mainly because it had the option of a decent GPU (at x1400). Only the macbookpro's come with a decent graphic card (x1600) and they are much more expensive. The ability to fully customize with dell - a little slower CPU - a lot faster GPU - smaller hard drive - more memeory - resulted in a feature set i wanted for a lot less.

It was a painful process to get it all configured and set up - but no that it is running it is okay - and has a place in our home as the #2 machine.

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Nice dream but. Apple haven't coo-ee's chance of getting near Dell's price competitiveness if they have to maintain the PC architectures flexibility.
The mass unthinking in the MP3 market may cop one size fits all but the tight pressed IT manager or the savvy PC buyer will see through such a strategy in a moment.
For all the inflexibility of the Dell web interface, Dell still has a lot to show Apple how to suck eggs about.

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

FactChecker:

Keep in mind that Apple Macs can run Mac OS X, Windows and Linux, while OS-limited Dell's can't run Mac OS X or any of the best-in-class Apple Mac-only apps like iLife, Final Cut, etc.

Date of configuration: Feb 15 2007 from respective online stores

Dell XPS M1710 Formula Red
Processor: 2.33Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
OS: Vista Ultimate
Display: 17"
Memory: 2Gb DDR2 (667Mhz)
HDD: 160Gb 5400rpm SATA
DVD: 8X CD/DVD Burner (double layer)
VideoCard: 512MB NVIDIA GeForce
Wireless: Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g || Wireless 355 Bluetooth 2.0+EDR
Connectivity: Modem (Assumed built-in) || ethernet
Camera: None (Assumed)
Softwares: None (or Vista addons)

TOTAL US$3,921

- - -

Apple MacBook Pro
Processor: 2.33Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
OS: OS X Tiger
Display: 17"
Memory: 2Gb DDR2 (667Mhz)
HDD: 160Gb 5400rpm SATA
DVD: Superdrive 8x (double layer)
VideoCard: 256MB ATI Mobility Radeon
Wireless: Built-in 54Mbps AirPort Extreme (802.11g) || Built-in
Bluetooth 2.0+EDR
Connectivity: Apple USB Modem || ethernet
Camera: Built-in iSight
Softwares: iLife06

TOTAL US$2,848

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Jon_Doh:

I've known for years that when configured with comparable components Macs are cheaper than Dells because I have priced them myself when building laptops. Not only are the Macs cheaper, but their laptops are much thinner and lighter not to mention light years ahead in the operating system.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

LucasC:

Of course macs are cheaper spec for spec. But how many people go to Dell for higher-end spec machines? Not that many.

Most of Dell's customers are the average Jo Bloe user on a shoestring budget looking for a cheap PC or laptop in the $500-$1500 price-range.

How many complete computer packages does Apple sell in that price-range? None.

Apple is no competitor to Dell's key market, and vice-versa.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

xmattingly:

"Most of Dell's customers are the average Jo Bloe user on a shoestring budget looking for a cheap PC or laptop in the $500-$1500 price-range.

How many complete computer packages does Apple sell in that price-range? None."

Ahem. What do you consider a "complete" computer package?Every heard of an iMac or MacBook?

Oh, I beg to differ about Apple competing with Dell. The consumer market (as you referenced) is where Apple has gained a strong foothold -- they have a stellar package of "lifestyle" software + hardware which no PC manufacture has a good product to compete with. Unless you count 3rd party crapperware that comes preinstalled on your machine.

There is a very substantial reason why Michael Dell suggested Apple license Mac OS X to them, and subsequently switched to AMD after Apple made their switch to Intel. Dell is running scared, and will have to run over some very hot coals just to MAINTAIN their market share.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

jeffharris:

Yes there are numerous Mac models available under $1500. Be aware that unlike Dell, Apple does NOT sell stripped down boxes.

ALL Macs are full-featured, with wireless and a full array of ports. Airport wireless, Bluetooth, ethernet 10/100 gigabit on Pro models), USB2, FireWire 400 (plus FireWire 800 on Pro models), audio in/out, built-in camera and mic (except for the Mac mini and Mac Pro). All laptops and iMacs support a SECOND external monitor for the cost of an adaptor cable ($20).

They ALL include the FULL version of Mac OS X (there's only ONE), so you get everything, even developer tools, plus a full array of software. iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD), etc., etc..

Also, you don't need anti-virus or anti-spyware software.

So:
2 - iMacs - 17" $999 and $1199.
1 - 20" iMac $1499

2 - Mac mini $599 and $799

3 - MacBooks $1099, $1299 and $1499

Do some research:
http://store.apple.com/

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

me:

Apple seels no PC or laptop within the $500 - $1500 range? Me things you had best visit apple.com sir.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

dirk Kennedy:

Now with the release of Vista. The days of the $399 box are over. You cant even run Vista on a bare bones wintel machine. You need a fast processor AND a very high end video card. he dya sof the on board graphics chip are history as vista will not display a 1/4 of its shiny new interface. Microsoft dumped longhorn and came up with an OS that has to compete with OSX.
Fortunatly almost all of apples machine can run vista flawlessly.
So the Joe Blow's of the world wont have the ability of buying an emachine that runs the dinosaur known as windows.

Face it kids, Its game over,


29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

d3p0:

"while OS-limited Dell's can't run Mac OS X or any of the best-in-class Apple Mac-only apps like iLife, Final Cut, etc."

Don't be so sure about that. I have OS X running stable on my Dellintosh performs quite well and is capable of running the applications mentioned.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Susan:

This article starts with what I refer to as "lazy journalism". That is the author did very little to research before writing - as did the users.

Facts;

- Dell is not Apple's biggest competitor. The entire WINTEL world is Apple's biggest competitor.

- Dell offers an abundance of online tools, software management tools etc. that TRUMP the tools the user spoke of above with regards to LENOVO. Dell knows where 100% of every Server, Notebook, PC is and what they are. Lenovo doesn't. Neither does Apple.

- According to 3rd party research Dell is now on TOP of the industry again for service. 80% of calls are handled without dispatching a technician and getting users up and running immediately.

Enough Said....Susan.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Matt L.:

If you're going to get technical about who is Apple's largest competitor, it would be HP as they are now the #1 selling PC brand.

As for the online tools, you don't really need anything out of Apple when you reinstall the Mac OS, all of the drivers are installed and work, out of the box. Nor do you need a driver for 3rd party components. They just work. So, that is really a moot point as for an Apple you don't need the online tools nor do they need to know where/what their servers/laptops/desktops are.

And how much of that 3rd party research says that most of those 80% of calls end with 'insert the restore disk and restore your PC because I'm not technical enough to fix it outside of this script they've given me'? Just because your hardware isn't failing and causing a tech to be sent doesn't mean that the support is performing greatly.

I've had my 12" G4 PB for 4+ years, and the only time I've had to wipe it was to install Panther, then Tiger, and back to Panther because my wife didn't like Tiger.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Eyeball Kid:

You can talk all you want about "price-point", but when you've got driver problems, or compatibility problems, you can put a lot of time into getting everything working right. Many years ago, before I used OS X, I spent many a night trying to get my mac functioning with a degree of smoothness. I was also operating Wintel machines at work, and the problems were worse. All of it took time away from what I wanted to do, which now and again was simply to sleep.

Now, with OS X, I really don't have to worry about any of it. I don't have to worry about getting my machine infected. I don't have to worry about crashes I don't have to worry about freezes, or reformatting the hard drive, and I don't have to worry about software malfunctions of any kind. IMO, OS X is simply the most advanced and tightest OS around, and if the Mac doesn't compare penny for penny with any Windows box, the savings come through in spades when compared with the TIME spent on getting a machine to work right, day in and day out.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Super Chump:

Unfortunately that would imply that Apple is even a blip on their radar. Don't kid yourself. Apple is a poodle that thinks that it's a rottweiler.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

macbones:

Blip on the RADAR? Apple has 25% of the market cap of microsoft right now, and is 10X more manueverable. Apple's market cap is higher than Dell's at the moment. Remember, Apple dips on the hardware side and the os side, so double their market share in terms of revenue stream. So who is really the 800# gorilla?

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mort Blort:

Windows is a poodle. UNIX is a Rottweiler. Apple is a UNIX.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

me:

Apple is tied for being the third largest PC manufacturer.

That's much Much MUCH bigger than you're giving them credit for.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mac Daddy:

Apple is the #1 producer of Macintosh computers in the world, and it's been that way since 1984! What more could you want? :)

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

wizard:

....Dell is on top for service.... ???
This is almost too funny for words. Dell sat by while lap and houses burned. Videos of Dell laptops burning brightly were posted everywhere on the net.... ever tried to get warranty service? LOL Dell employee Susan sound wake up and smell the BURNING plastic.


29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Gorp:

Yes, but Dell is still a Juggernaut to contend with...case in point: Electronic Data Systems (EDS) Navy-Marine Corps Intranet (NMCI). Which in fact has netted almost 1 billion (yes, that's with a "b") in revenue for EDS.

Even sadder, is that the US Govt is going to have to stick with EDS (whose primary supplier is....Dell! Surprise!) due to the sher amount of $$$ it's alreaady invested. And even the Commandant of the Marine Corps has come out and stated that he's unhappy.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dr.phil:

I want to comment on Susan's article. First off, Dell has the very worst customer support that a consummer would ever want to deal with. Let me give you an example, I have a customer who bought a new Dell Computer two years ago and the hard drive just went out last month. The customer called Dell Tech Support they sent out a technician who installed the drive started Windows for the customer and walked out of his home. Keep in mind that the customer paid $375.00 for an extended warranty. The technician from Dell said to the customer we don't install the drivers you do that!

Susan,you might think PC is wonderful, but don't forget that there are 275,000 viruse, and over 500K of spyware files that can steal your identity. I have both PC and Mac at home. Still the Mac is a much better machine all around. At least it works. Apple's Tech Support is so much better then Dell. At least the people at Apple can speak English compared to Dell's tech support (meaning over Seas)

The average consumer gets a virus in 10 minutes. I haven't seen a virus on an Apple machine since the Auto Start worm back in 1997.

Enough said! Buy a Mac and dump your PC.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tranz4m:

Dell XPS M1710 weight 8.71 lbs
Macbook Pro 17" weight 6.8 lbs
Dell is 28% heavier.

Dell XPSM1710 size 1.69"H x 11.3"D x 15.51"W
=296 cubic inches

MacbookPro 17" size 1.0"H x 10.4"D x 15.4"W
=160 cubic inches
Dell is 85% larger!

I guess with Dell you get a lot more for more money!

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Boulos:

Ah, you might want to do a little more reading FactChecker -- the ONLY reason non-Apple machines dont run Mac OS is ... because Apple wont let you. And you'll find there are a couple of Wintel machines that DO run Linux, just one or two, or three or four, or five or six.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

pg5150:

I'm almost willing to bet you work for Dell or own Dell stock. The reason I say this is because you seem delusional to the fact that Dell is in some deep do do right now because of their business structure. Design is an after thought in all of their products, they have horrible customer support, and just read the article above about hardware. I know where those lost PC sales at Dell are going, they are going to Apple. People don't want a laptop that looks like a bathroom scale. Obviously Apple is doing something right because sales and growth are both booming. The only reason PC's still have 95% market share is because most people are uneducated about their choices. About 95% of people that give the Mac a try never want to go back to a PC. The only thing is most people out there have never tried a Mac, thus don't know what they are missing. Because of current sales almost everyone out there will soon know someone that owns a Mac, once the PC user base at large gets a chance to try one the game will be over. I know people out there say the same thing happened to Apple in the early 90's when the IBM clones over took them, but things are much different today. First, Apple has it's own retain outlets now that are doing quite well so outsiders can't make business deals to get them pushed to the back shelf in retail. Second, the PC user base has had 15+ years of Microsoft dominance, and Bill Gates telling us the next version will solve everything. This is why the media hasn't been giving Bill Gates such an easy time recently, they've heard his song and dance to many times before and like most people out there they are sick of it. If I was to give Michael Dell advice it would be the same advice that he gave Apple years ago that's coming back to bite him in the butt. Mr Dell you should close the company and give the money back to the share holders...

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

jwbaumann:

I am a long-time Apple/Mac user/fan. Over the past 5 years, I have gone to Dell's site many times to configure a system comparable to Apple's basic iMac and iBook/PowerBook. In every case, the Dell system costs more, and it takes 3-5 times as long, and I ALWAYS encounter a "you can't get this with that" incompatibility message. Always.

It might be worth it if the final product from Dell was better, but the reality is that I would still have an ugly box that runs Windows, with all its security and management issues. I cannot imagine why anyone would voluntarily use/choose Windows or Dell.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

OS11:

Raindog - I don't think you realize but Apple now has cost advantage over DeLL. First of all DeLL machines ship with a Microsoft surcharge of about $60, Apple has no such expense since its OS is free to put on each machine. Second, Apple builds all Macs offshore, whereas DeLL is still trying to build them in the states. They are working hard to get everything out of the country, but until they do, they can't compete against Apple on price per unit, labor is killing them.

The entire high end (Servers and Towers) Apple now has a major cost advantage when an IT department is looking for Speed and Low Cost. Apple's Xserve buries DeLL in hardware and trumps them on Server Software since OSX Server allows IT Departments to lower costs by over 4 times compared to what Microsoft is offering. The Xserve is now the low cost leader of all top Server Vendors. Check it out:

http://www.apple.com/xserve

With Tower Configurations, Apple is about 20% less in price for more features.

Soon, Apple will eat DeLL's lunch on the low end as well.

Lastly, you need to understand Apple Inc. is now more valuable than DeLL Inc., so no matter how you look at it, Dell is imploding... so it's only a matter of time before we see DeLL fire "thousands", and shutter buildings all over Round Rock Texas. Apple is just too strong in manufacturing, design and distribution for DeLL to compete.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Terrin:

Dell, like Apple, builds most of its PCs in countries like China (do a Google search). Both Dell and Apple maintain some manufacturing capacity in the US. These are largely used today to customize computers. For instance, the stock configuration will come from China, but then will be customized to a customer's configuration in the US. With that said, I would gladly pay more for a Mac if it were manufactured in the US.

I firmly believe that it is hypocritical to be talk about how great it is be America, but then to turn around and happily buy products made in countries that supposedly are bad because they are not free. Products are cheap in places like China because they do not care about human rights. By buying products from China you are supporting all that CHina stands for at the expense of your own people who are trying to make a decent wage to live a decent life.

With that said, Dell is still able to kick Apple's butt in the low cost arena. It does so by using yesterday technology. For instance, dirt cheap Celron processors. To be fair, however, Apple does not compete in this arena. It does not make computers using yesterday technology. Accordingly, perhaps it is unfair of me to say Dell kicks Apple's butt here.

Apple is highly competitive with Dell when new technology is involved. For instance, the Core Duo processors machines. Dell usually, but not always, still wins for low end models of the Core Duo, against a comparable Apple offering like a Mac Book. Then again to be fair to Apple, Apple generally offers more technology in similar configured machines (e.g. motion sensors and ambient light sensors). However, Apple generally wins out in the high end Core Duo configurations like Mac Book Pros and Mac Pros.

The conception that makes are more expensive is based on 1) the Apple of yesterday, which used mostly self owned proprietary technology, and 2) comparing low cost machines using old technology with Apple's lowest cost machines, which do not use yesterday's technology. In addition, people like to say they could build a computer for less then Apple sells it for. Perhaps (I am not into that). Then again, I suspect you could build a computer for less then Dell would sell you a comparable one.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Snowy_River:

Saying products are cheap in China because they don't care about human rights is a gross over-simplification. There are amazingly complex economic forces involve as to why products, or more to the point, labor is cheaper in China than here. Just as there are reasons why labor is cheaper in a tiny town in the middle of no where in the US than labor in down town NYC. Also, buy products that are made in another country is only supporting another country's system in so far as the company that is contracting to have their products made in another country supports those systems. There are companies that go to great lengths to ensure that the working conditions and the daily pay of workers is kept relatively very high.

As for being willing to pay more for made locally products, that's not a bad attitude at all. The big killer in all of this is that transporting things all over the world is pumping more and more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. If / when companies have to pay for *that*, they'll be pushed to reevaluate the cost of making things overseas.


29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Terrin:

I agree that it is an over simplification. I do not, however, agree that when Asian countries are being discussed the simplification is gross.

The Chinese labor force can be placed into three categories. First, prisoners. Second, the military. Third, the disenfranchised labor force. Moreover, 95 percent of Chinese industry is owned by Communist Party Leaders.

The prisoners, are often political prisoners. They are a free labor force. They often work from five in the morning until past midnight producing practically everything. There have been stories from reputable news-sources saying the Chinese government even kills political prisoners to sell their organs (e.g. prisoners who speak out against the government).

The disenfranchised workers work under similar sort of hours as the prisoners work, but do get paid a handful of dollars a day (often the pay is so little they have to live in factory provided housing in which they are charged to live). Apple's own audit of the Chinese iPod factory confirms this well known fact. More importantly these people do not get to vote. When they speak out against the politician owners of the companies they are forced to work for, they get killed. That is what Talliman Square was all about. Students shot dead for speaking out against their oppressive government.

So, it makes no sense for people to talk bad about companies like Google for bending to the will of the Chinese government in order to do business there, but to then go out and buy products made in China. When you buy a product from China practically always you are making a Communist Leader very wealthy. A leader who often uses free labor to produce the products you are using.

Before free trade agreements, US companies were forced to pay a tax when shipping product into the US. This tax often made it uneconomical to build product in some countries (e.g. Communist countries we did not like). The lobbyists paid off the politicians and now these companies 1) benefit from the not only cheap, but often free foreign labor forces, and 2) pay no tax coming back into the US. Moreover, they get tax breaks on the money involved in doing business there, as well as money earned there.

I used to work for a clothing company that made some product overseas. My job was to calculate the cost of making a garment. Often it would cost like five dollars in total costs to have the clothing made and shipped to the US (not considering previously mentioned tax breaks). These same clothes would retail in the US at around $80. Sure eventually, there would be sales, and the average person would buy it around sixty, but there is a lot of profit involved there.

Accordingly, my way of being a patriot is to buy American when possible. (all stated facts here can be verified by looking at news paper articles readily available on Google). American companies have been allowed to sell out americans in the name of being competitive, when in fact, it is mere greed.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

ChrisM:

I belive you meant to refer to Tiananmen Square.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

sydneyenergyco-op:

You've got a lot of stuff wrong, but your last comment is dead on:
Companies moving to Asia is not about competitiveness, just pure greed.

The treatment of local staff dished out by glamour labels like Burberry Chanel and other lessers like Billabong and Quiksilver is nothing short of atrocious

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

jmmejzz:

"As for being willing to pay more for made locally products, that's not a bad attitude at all. The big killer in all of this is that transporting things all over the world is pumping more and more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. If / when companies have to pay for *that*, they'll be pushed to reevaluate the cost of making things overseas."

Not companies but consumers will pay for that in higher retail costs.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

More flawed Apple PR, on one hand you guys are praising Apple hardware's ability to run MS Windows, then you come up to with this "Dell pays a MS surcharge guff". Try re-running those calculations with a copy of XP or Vista included, hmm, because like it or not it will be the OS that most will want/require on their office desktop.
And while you guys are re-doing the sums why not do some more realistic comparisons against suitably spec-ed optiplex or latitude models and don't forget to include the cost of all the necessary business software into that model because we wouldn't want flawed figures would we.
Server space now you are kidding, I see windows boxes everywhere, I see a reasonable representation of Nix boxes but those chrome and mesh apple things would rate as nothing more than curio status. Apple's boxes the IT departments server choice for savings in speed and cost what parallel universe does this happen in.
You guys have really got to to stop believing that everything that comes out of the top of a skivvy is gospel and regain some grip on reality.
Is the Apple world takeover penned in before or after the release of the DRM free Ipod with the replaceable battery?

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

OS11:

First of all you "assume" people would still need to run Windows once they have a Mac, but in the real world, most Windows Applications have been ported or can be run "without" Windows using CrossOver for Mac. The heyday of Windows died in 1999, it's just taking the business community awhile to understand what has happened.

Second, the Xserve outguns DeLL's Optiplex by a factor of 4. IF you want the most for your money, least hassle and smoothest running systems. There is NO WAY a DeLL machine can compete if they are still running Windows Server. OSX Server is nearly 8 years ahead at this point in the game. MS is standing still.

Here's a nice chart that duplicates the services of what you get with DeLL & Microsoft for about 75% less.

http://snipurl.com/1amzu

Trust me, I run the numbers all day long and DeLL and MS are no longer able to compete in the server space with the strong showing of Apple into the marketplace.

Yes, I agree... IT departments are some of the slowest on the planet to implement better technology... a funny fact is when you mention Apple... their is a distinct fear that their JOBS are now on the line. True... but fear or not Apple is moving quickly into the enterprise and nothing short of total dissolving Microsoft's server direction can stop it. Unix Trumps MS Exchange EVERY TIME.

I only look at facts, while you appear to be trying to prop up the old MS/DeLL company line. Times have changed and Apple has completely changed the rules that you lived under when you were stuck using MS or Wintel products.

And by the way, any iPod ever made has a replaceable battery. They start out about $19 and you can do it yourself. Gosh, another ignorant myth has been blown out of your water.

-

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

IT departments may be slower to implement new technology and with good reason. Reason One: in the business sense a computer is just another tool. You use the tool you have as long as it can adequately do the job you require of it.
Reason Two: when you rely on a tool for business, it had better work, and had better be be the right tool for the job.
Reason Three: You dont use a hammer to drive in screws. (well competent professionals dont) Runiing requred windows business apps on some Mac emulator is not the best tool for the job.

While you may enjoy lathering your skivvys off at the latest new thing, (and good on you, glad you got a hobby) that same new think may not be the universal panacea for the IT world.

I'm no Windows fan, far from it, but by the same token I'd be damn fool to turn proven systems on their head just because Steve has built a pc that looks like a desk lamp. Cool as they may be chrome handles dont stand for squat in the TCO arguement.

PS: It is creditable that nondescript Chinese companies have provided a replacement battery solution which serves as a work-around for Apples poor design. But then again us conservative types would only buy Genuine, so that MP3 player would be destined for the bin in which it belongs.

Watch the blood pressure, wont you? Foaming at the mouth can be detrimental to your health. :>

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mainyehc:

What does the industrial design of a consumer machine have to with a SERVER?

"I'm no Windows fan, far from it, but by the same token I'd be damn fool to turn proven systems on their head just because Steve has built a pc that looks like a desk lamp. Cool as they may be chrome handles dont stand for squat in the TCO arguement."

That would be the venerable iMac G4, a.k.a. Flat Panel iMac or "the new iMac", and it was you who brought it up to the argument, or so it seems to me... Now, I had one of those and it was seriously cool (my first Mac ever), and I have to agree with you in one point, and disagree with you on another: the TCO for that machine, chrome handle notwithstanding, was most definitely lower that that of many faster, better spec'ed Wintel machines of it's time (mine was a last Rev. 17'' 1.25 GHz G4 with a "whopping" 256MB of RAM, bought in Dec. 2003, and I could care less about it being under-spec'ed; the real value was Panther, duh), as "time is money" (ever heard of that?). OTOH, that friggin' chrome handle, while gorgeous and ergonomic, was VERY expensive; that's why the subsequent revisions, the iMac G5 and its look-alike sucessors, the iMac Core Duo and Core2Duo, feature some also stunning, yet much cheaper industrial design.

As for the XServe, if you did your research properly, you'd have found that all its iterations, the G4, G5 and Xeon XServes, feature an impressive industrial design. I won't go into specifics, as I admittedly don't know squat about servers, but I can assure you: I can recognize smart design when I see it, and common sense dictates (or it should, dammit!) that smart design saves money, BIG money. Also, it doesn't take an IT degree or whatever to understand that OS X is leagues ahead of Windows, and why.

If you still won't believe the XServe, coupled with OS X Server, will revolutionize IT, then read this, and tell us what you think:

Apple Takes On Exchange Server

P.S.- This may all seem to be pure fanboy-ism on my part: so sue me. That's what you get when you show contempt for a "rabid Mac fan"'s favourite computer design (and btw, it's not fanboy-ism, it's my FUD-sensor at work)... Peace ;)

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Quote:"as I admittedly don't know squat about servers" .... There endeth that argument in a flourish.

The evangelism continues yet another link to another nondescript fan-boy website offered up as the absolute truth. Why do you people bother? Don't you guys realise you were born 100's of years too late to take part in the crusades?

Like I said good design is a little more than chrome handles and no visible screws. But believe what you will, hell there are even people out there that think French cars are good. Go Figure! :>




29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

FUDmeister:

" savvy PC buyer" ??
isnt that a contradiction in terms ?

90% of the computer-buying public know little or nothing about computers, and when they go to Best Buy (et.al) to see whats available.. the zit faced kid behind the counter shows them a WinTel Box .. not a Mac !

Since they have nothing to compare WinDoze to,
they end up buying it, thinking thats all there is..
When these consumers are told that Macs arent affected by viruses, trojans, spyware, porn popups and the like .. and they ask .. "Why is that ?" .. and they are informed that "Macs dont run Windoze" .. they usually are shocked to learn that there is a legit alternative to choose from ..

However, to those Wintel fanatics out there.. there is some good news ... for about $600 USD.. you can get a brand new Mac, and load Windows XP on it.. today !
Go to http://www.apple.com/bootcamp .. to find out how easy it is to do ..

And yes... your old VGA monitor, and USB keyboard and multi-button mouse will work just fine on the new Mac !!

Have you ever noticed that about 99% of the crap being spread around, comes from those too lazy to research their topic ??

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

pf:

Hi,

Apple innovate, Dell does not.

Paul


29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

JR:

It will never, ever , ever happen.
The reason is logical.
It would make Dell customers happy.
Therefore Dell will never consider it.
It's the way of the PC world!

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dave Hanks:

For years IT has forced WINDOWS solutions upon the masses. They did not want to "support" two boxes. (Who could blame them if each box was as difficult to support as those with WINDOWS? Besides, many realized that this was GREAT job insurance.)

Macs now run native WINDOWS/ (Hey, Dude it's an INTEL Inside!). Last week, I needed support for one "WINDOWS IE" issue. The help desk used remote control to take over my "WINDOWS" box and helped me solve the problem. He NEVER KNEW I was using a Mac. One month earlier I called the same department and asked if the applicaiton ran under WINDOWS on Mac... their answer: Mac WINDOWS is NOT SUPPORTED! (My new motto: Don't ask, don't tell!) That app runs only 5 minutes a day. The rest of the day that iMac is pure Mac OS X.

Overnight it is harder for IT to block an Apple Mac purchase... the argument "it doesn't run WINDOWS" no longer stands. Many Mac users only load WIDOWS if IT forces them to do so. Once they experience Mac OS X and no longer need IT to keep their systems running, these users celebrate! They tell their friends... who buy Macs, and so it goes.

Mac market share increased from 2.5% to 6.5% in two years! Quarterly year-over-year sales show increases of about 35%—that compounds quickly. [A concept few people appreciate with regards to market share!] University sales of Macs are appoaching 45% of all computers sold on many campuses. This bodes well for Apple. Some estimate a 50/50 market share WINDOWS/Mac OS X by 2011.

This long time Mac user is finally vindicated!

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

davidlt:

There was one website which is tracking what OS is controlling the market. (marketshare.hitslink.com)

I was trying to count how much market share does Apple have and it is about 6.22% as I can remember. There could be some inaccuracy so the real number should be between 6.00 and 6.50 per cent.

IntelMac (Mac based on INTEL CPU), took 2 per cent of market share in 1 year of existing. That's really, really amazing. The bigger market share Apple has, the faster it grows, I even could consider that Apple will have 8-9 per cent coming March (2007)

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Richard Dib:

Food for thought...

Think Apple is Small... Apple is worth more than Dell (Market Cap is bigger for Apple). Take a look at Yahoo Finance.


Does Apple has to complete with the WHOLE Wintel market?
Why? Does Gateway? Does Toshiba? Does Sony? Apple makes PCs like anybody else. Apple's PCs just happen to run more than just Windows (Linux, OS-X, Windows, Vista... all of them)


Will Apple dominate the complete market? I don't think even Steve Jobs expects this. I do believe eventually Apple will be #1 in the PC market, over Dell. Give it a couple of years.


At the moment, Windows PCs are Virus magnets. It is a fact! Will OS-X get their own Viruses? Who knows. But the fact remains.. OS-X has NO viruses... I have not seen one on ANY of my 5 Macs.. EVER!


OS-X does not lock up like Windows does. It is a fact. Unix computers are designed to run for a year with no reboot. I run several Linux servers with over 300 days uptime .. Unix/Linux is just rock solid stuff. Why is it that Windows is not? Microsoft decided to re-invent the wheel. Apple did not. Apple used long standing Unix as the base for OS-X. Unix has been out there for a VERY long time, prior to Microsoft being founded.


Are Apple computers cheaper? Does it matter? Do you buy a computer because is cheap or because it is the best? Do you buy a barebones Dell to install pirated Windows and software and save money that way? Well, maybe you should keep buying Dells. That is where Dell is cheaper... There is a HECK of a lot more pirated software installed on the average Windows PC than on Macs... and I mean LOTs more. Maybe you are one of those.


Apple's offering is the most intelligent. You get to try something new and better, but if you do not like it, you can still run Windows. Can you do that with a Dell? (Oh well.. I guess you can "hack" OS X to run on a Dell but it will never be the same.. no automatic updates... posibility of OS breaking down.. no support... yes.. it is worth the savings... NOT!


After all this... do you want to buy a Dell? Go ahead.. it is a free country ! (I presume it is where you are too)



29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aussie1:

Guys

Let's not kid ourselves there only bloody computers.

Also if there are not Mac viruses why does Mac antivirus software exist?

I did a vivisimo search on Mac Visuses it cam back with 207 hit this was the first


05.25.06 MacVirus.org News posted by kta00
First MAC OS X Virus
a description can be found here: http://www.avira.com/en/threats/MacOS_Leap_A_details.html

more...


05.25.06 MacVirus.org News posted by YeeFam
New Malware - Mac OS X
New Malware discovered. Not dangerous if you do not click on executable. Also, you must acknowledge yes or ok to let it infect your computer.

more...


05.31.04 MacVirus.org News posted by admin
Widget Vulnerability - Tiger - Mac OS X Vulnerability.
With Apple's latest release of Mac OS X Tiger (10.4) along came the first security issue that effected the Apple portion of the operating system directly. The security issue revolved around the ability to automatically install Widgets when a user accessed a website that contained the code. Example c



29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tranz4m:

Now find a real article about a real Mac infected with a real virus. There is a difference between a security issue and a real virus. Find an article about an infected Mac that sends emails without the owner knowing it. Or Zombie Macs. Show me an article not written by a virus company trying to sell Mac users worthless software.
Good luck.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

The Skivvy Virus has infected a good proportion of Macs worldwide, while it has no effect on the machine it has turned many users of infected machines into a clueless prats who will spread the gospel according to Jobs in a tireless and ill-conceived crusade. At this time there is no apparent cure. :>

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tranz4m:

Like you said the Skinny on Skivvy is that it has no effect on Macs. Can't hurt them.
Effects Windows outlook only as another of the wonderful Active X viruses.
Your 0 for 1. Try again.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Perhaps you'd like to look at Nathan's piece here just one of hundreds of examples.

Now this has been said many times before TransUm but read carefully and even you might be able to catch on.

Linux for example has very few viral attacks targeted at it, same applies for Mac because for the most place no-one would notice. No script kiddy bothers targeting minority operating systems.

If your Mac utopia ever arrived you'd find the virus attack as prolific as teenage acne. Face it you and irrelevance go hand in hand.

Do you still need to buy a clue or would you like to ask the audience?

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

David Flynn:

I've lost count of how many notebooks (and desktops) I have used, and the whole issue of "which driver go I need?" almost always drives me around the bend, especially when it comes to checking for updated drivers or doing a rebuild from scratch (ie not even a Ghost image to start with).

By memory, a few vendors (such as Lenovo's ThinkPad range, and Gateway) have offered utilities which check what hardware yo have and then looks up the vendor's online support site to advise what drivers (and other downloads and updates) you need. If I recall, the ThinkPads even have an update manager to ease the whole process, although it was never quite as smooth as I'd have preferred (for instance, it unpacked drivers into folders hanging off the the C directory and you never knew if you could safely delete those or not, post-update).

And there's no reason why each vendor can't do something similar, except for lack of effort or a feeling that it'd cost too much (but believe me, knowing that updates would be seamless would be a BIG incentive for buyers to choose one brand over another). There's already the DriverGuide Toolkit from www.driverguide.com, which can detect almost all hardware on your PC and then (for a fee, of course) help you download the necessary drivers. But why should I have to pay for this? If it's so easy for a third-party developer to do, why should not at least the top tier vendors be adding a similar feature to their checklist of "Reasons to buy my brand?".

In the meantime, it one again appears that Apple is showing PC vendors the way it should be done, and demonstrating why so many Apple users are also Apple fans, while PC users are just, well, users...



29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

whatif:

Here is where the basic logic of your arguement breaks down. It is rooted in a simple misunderstanding of basic PC market facts. The reason Toshiba does this...The reason any PC maker of notable size does this is a simple matter of capacity. It is not uncommon on many basic components within the PC market to be forced to utilize multiple suppliers simply because no one supplier is capable of meeting the demand for the manufacturer.

It's been great to see ATI and NVidia reach a size that they can supply enough video chips for a single model of a manufacturers line. It's been great to see Intel and Broadcom grow to the size to do the same for the NIC market. But the wireless market still is in this embattlement.

This isn't Toshibas fault, nor any other PC maker fault. Rather it is the markets fault. The reason that Apple isn't plagued with this (and history shows at times they are) it that their share in the market places them behind most of the major PC makers globally.

Size matters.

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

OS11:

whatif quote: ---This isn't Toshibas fault, nor any other PC maker fault. Rather it is the markets fault. The reason that Apple isn't plagued with this (and history shows at times they are) it that their share in the market places them behind most of the major PC makers globally---

I think you mean "Apple won't produce a product unless a vendor can agree/produce exactly to Apple's terms".

Apple takes the high road when designing & producing products. If NVidia (for example) cannot agree to produce 600,000 chipsets for an upcoming Apple product, Apple is ready to use ATI, or similar vendor. BUT Apple won't switch back and forth during a "production run", like low end vendors such as DeLL, HP, Gateway do.

This well-developed policy makes for better products over the long term, simplifies support, and makes for happier customers.

This "rule" not to cut corners on a final design is the way to go, but sadly, most PC vendors don't think of this simple step... thus Macs tend to be much better products than PCs.

-

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Feldwebel Wolfenstool:

What have you been smoking? It must be good. Can you get me some?

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

bobzhuman:

Some are just stuck in an old paradym. Maybe afraid of what their friends in the 5th grade might say if they open-mindedly compared. It isn't any longer an apples/oranges comparison...especially with intel processors. Macs just work! Why would professional people overwhelmingly choose to use Macs...its called work flow efficiency, color, and no down time.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Why would professional people overwhelmingly choose to use Macs... Well out there in reality land they overwhelimingly do not! They overwhelingly run a mature build of MS windows on some name brand hardware. You guys really need to get out more.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

jeffharris:

If you work for a company, chances are they TELL you which OS you will use.

And who tells management what the company will use? IT Departments.

Why?

Aside from a few vertical market applications, it's called JOB SECURITY.

There have been numerous studies showing how a Mac network is considerably cheaper to support than an equivalent Windows network.

Here's one;
http://www.networkworld.com/best/2006/022706bestbreaker-schwartau.html?page=1.

Google it.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Ah the old chesnut "Job Security" there is no job security in making rash decisions granted, equally there is no job security in sticking your head in the sand and avoiding change. If you boys were not so busy being zealots to the cause, you may be able to comprehend how new or cutting edge isn't always the best, most reliable cheapest or job secure solution at this point in time.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Rob:

Great comment Snowy_River. raindog, exhibits an interesting reaction that I have come across so often-- you tout the real advantages of the Mac experience and you instantly get buried in "arguments" about how MS is so wonderful because everyone uses its product. It is true that for now MS is king- it once wasn't and isn't necessarily always going to be- but simply stating that fact and then backing it up with IT's general reluctance to do anything other than fall back on the tried and true, far from cutting edge stance is a long way from proving that Apple is in anyways inferior

I have converted some organizations over to the Mac, even if it began with "just" OS X server and once IT got its hands around OS X, the change was remarkable. MS is there because most IT people are not comfortablw with UNIX, don't know that OS X is a fabulously easy "version" of UNIX to work with, and in their ignorance and fear of not seeming knowledgeable these IT folk dive back into the mediocrity and job security that Windows provides... thus increasing TCO but hey, they don't care!

You just have to take solace in the new Apple "balls" to go head to head with MS and that means for the first time in 20 years, Apple is serious about getting back on top. Despite, raindog et al. derision of Apple and the fear to let go of mediocrity, there is no reason for Apple not to gain traction in the business world. It will take time but the new Mac user in college has learned that the Mac experience is better than the Wintel one and with all the great amount of business apps that are platform agnostic or are even better on a Mac, the days of MS dominating everything are already over.
Why do you think Bill Gates lost the plot in his Newsweek interview? Why is MS crippling the Mac version of Office?
You think Apple is going to take that sitting down?

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Where did you find me saying Microsoft was wonderful. As if!
That aside you are kidding yourself to think that MS doesn't hold the majority share in most business server rooms.
It seems the ones bagging the IT staffers are mostly wanna be IT staffers themselves.

Want to know what the car with the cheapest TCO is in a given city? It's what the use as Taxis! Want to know what the cheapest most reliable server solution is? Same applies, look what the predominant solutions are there!

You Skivvy faithful crack me up, it's like a religion to you isn't it. You should seek profession help.


29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

The Truth Hurts:

First of all,I know HUNDREDS of people that use computers,I deal with them every day,i dont know 1 person that uses a mac.
Next,dell make massed produced computers that arnt worth the paper they write the recipts on,utter CRAP.I refuse to even look at them in my shop.I have had no end of problems with them.And now,why would u pick linux,osx,or any other os over a os that has taken 6 years and several BILLION dollars to produce???.It just goes to show that there are people out there who are badly misguided in this world,Vista is Cutting edge !!!

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

pg5150:

First of all Vista is not cutting edge, it's much better than XP but not cutting edge. Vista copied a lot of features that Mac users have had for years now. Vista still has a registry, DLL files, and most apps stilll need access to modify the system. That is not in any way state of the art. It's hilarous ot think that M$ has spent that much time and money to copy Apple and Google, when either one of those companies could have spent that money and time to create some truely revolutionary products. Vista is not revolutionary it's evolutionary. Believe me I know I am an IT manager. I oversee a network of about 500 windows machines and 100 Macs, all run by OS X Server and Linux servers. I'm also am a beta tester for MS so I was probably testing Vista before you even saw a screen shot.

Now let me ask you does the REAL truth hurt???

Here's a great video about Vista copying OS X.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/press/pogue-points-out-vistas-coincidences-with-mac-os-x-224076.php


29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Renegades:

of all the major pc retail brands I reckon hp has got to have the easiest driver update support site. In my eyes its a job well done :). simple, search model, follow a link to driver and support, choose os version and viola list of latest drivers.

And you dont have to pay for the backup disks or anything if ya loose them because it has a program to create them on your computer.

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

APC administrator:

but it's still a major pain to download each individually and install them. Apple's one-click driver installer for any model of Mac is a huge timesaver.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Doesn't that one click convenience come at a huge cost? I care little for Bills monopoly and I don't think Steve's would be any better.
That one click convenience stifles any development that isn't in the interest of the monopoly.
The great strength of the PC's design was it encouraged parallel development in hardware and software. That has been the PC's greatest strength, messy at times granted but more things to more people.

Microsoft have tried their damnedest to close shop and become Apple. The last thing this industry needs are one trick ponies. Apple has shown their hand and they are not to be trusted either.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Undecided:

I was browsing through the comments here, feeling a bit sleepy from all the bickering when I saw this one..."HP got it right?" This funny statement jolted my system and not in a good way. I have 2 desktop HPs and let me tell you, all they ever gave me were headaches. I purchased a box of new CDs so I could backup my restoration CDs (as HP instructed). But guess what, when the time came that I needed them, they wouldn't work! So I contacted HP to ask them to send me restoration CDs, they informed me that I had to pay for a fee! The nerve of some people. Not only did I have to spend money to create the CDs myself (which never worked), now I have to pay extra for something I should have been entitled to in the first place. After countless hours of arguing and threatening to never buy an HP equipment again, an HP manager agreed to send me the CDs. Too late. What has been sworn will be honored.

As for driver update support, forget it. When I did some upgrades for one of my PCs, two printers and a DVD driver stopped working. I've gone through their site countless times to no avail. As fas as I'm concerned, the only thing HP got right was to monopolize the market of Best Buy.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

M:

Amazing thread...I've been (was) a Wintel guy through and through for 20 years..started in PC's in 1978, was responsible for purchasing BILLIONS $ plus in Wintel PC equipment,and have been major customers of Microsoft (and the intel HW guys) and Apple...but always used a PC

Until...getting hooked on a Ipod and finally looking at a MAC...At first I thought, no way, I have too many PC programs..it was my kids who showed me..."Dad..all your programs are to make your PC work..the MAC doesn't need them". They were right. Anti-virus, system utilities, windows cleaners, anti spyware, norton utilities...the only real programs were Office and a finance program.

The reason I was looking for a new PC...the old one had gotten so out of whack with drivers, programs, slow downs, crashes...

So I tried a mac. Its been 4 months. Not one reboot. Not one conflict. Not one network failure. Quiet. Stylish. Mac office is fine. The one program I couldn't replace works fine under parallels when i need it.

The only reason that Wintel is still standing is because for too long the Apple crowd was the tie dye tshirt that lacked credibility for mainstream people.

I believe the world is changing. The King is dead (wintel). Long live the King (Apple).

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

stevenj:

I've been around Bell Labs for a decade and a half (the last of the good years) and then academia. What impresses me is how many folks in universities, particularly in the sciences (not as much in engineering) are moving to OS X.

One very famous CS guy recently told me (when I commented on his iBook) - "I'm too old to play around with Windows drivers and constantly building Linux kernels. At some point you realize you just want to work and leave Windows and Linux to the kiddies..."

At a particle physics conference in Aspen last Summer I noticed over half attendees were using Macs.

OS X is not perfect, but it is much more hassle-free than Linux or Windows. In my case hassle-free is what I need to get my work done.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

John:

I worked with 6 different pieces of Wintel crap over the past 10 years and despite a diligent IT Dept have had constant problems with crashes freezes viruses you name it. I have had two Apples over the same time at home without a blip. It's Apple for me.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

mark:

I have had wintel machines for more than 10 years havent had a virus , crash freeze and my Mac Mini is much the same. The wintel machines have been built (except the laptops) by myself which is a lot harder to do with a Mac.

PS if you are getting viruses then your IT dept isn't very diligent.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tranz4m:

I too have had wintel machines and viruses. I've also had Macs. If you have viruses than you can only have windose. It doesn't work both ways. Show me an article about a real Mac infected with a real virus that isn't written by some company trying to sell virus software. You can't!

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

no bias here:

It may be true the 17-inch Apple laptop is priced lower then the Dell however, the 15-inch E1505 is about $1000 cheaper for the 1680x1050 display, wireless, bluetooth, disk, dvd, (minus the camera). I would rather lug around the 15" laptop, not the 17" mac, for a grand less, all things being equal.

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

OS11:

agreed that Apple doesn't have a budget 15.4" model, but when you start looking at the specs, the MacBook is quite a bit more machine.

it has 1GB of ram, not 512MB
(E1515 uses "shared" ram with the video card)
has firewire
has 802.11n, not the slower "g"
has 1000BaseT ethernet
it has remote control for media
it has backlit keys (which is an incredible feature)
it's quite a bit thinner and lighter than the E1515
holds its value much better than the dell... you'll get $1000+ back even after 3 years of use, you can't say that about the E1515
has a break away power cord, extremely valuable!
a camera of course
1 more hour of battery life
better quality screen (even though resolution is 1440 by 900) (E1515 is prone to shimmering)
you get OSX, iLife, etc.
and many more features here:

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html

the going rate for the MacBook 15.4" at Amazon is $1849, with no tax or shipping fee, so basically you are looking at $700 more, for a ton more features, less weight, far better resale value, plus you get a more stable OS, one that runs "all software", not ones locking you into just Windows.



29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

I C it all every day:

Apple will never be able to compete against the greater PC market. All of their products are based around 'apple hardware' giving the power-users a lack of flexibility. Anyone who uses a computer to type a report, surf the web, or check email, might as well be using a machine that is 5 years old. There is no need to have the latest and greatest.
Dell has the best production system that this world has ever seen, and that is a HUGE step ahead of Apple. They have to keep each machine in a box, on a shelf until some poor guy buys it (he will be even poorer thereafter). Dell has no inventory. That is a much bigger problem for a business to face.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

What you don't tell them Mr OSwhatever while you are busy evangelising for Fruit Computer Inc, is just how well that Macbook actually runs those Windows programs? It many cases its about on par to running Vista with half a Gig of RAM! Yes by definition they both will run but its not something a sane person would attempt for anything less than a substantial bet.

Being locked into Windows is little different to being locked into OS11, but for all its flaws, which are many, (and growing with each new version) the Windows platform still offers eons more variety for those whose applications stretch past the usual word processing, spreadsheet or drawing style fare.

Those silly enough to buy a Macbook to run Windows applications will be about as satisfied as those who are lured into the half Gig Vista machines, but guess which problem will be easier to fix? They be hoping your right on good Mac trade ins, they'll need it!

That "runs windows programs" promise is as flaky as a used car warranty!

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Afrogalactic:

Just wondering Raindog... Have you actually sat down and USED OS X before? I'm not referring to a 5 minute fiddle in a shop. Have you actually honestly roadtested OS X? You are certainly effective at insults and sarcasm however how reliable can your opinion be if you haven't actually given OS X a fair-go first? At the end of the day, globally, when people become aware of MAC's user-friendliness, its simplicity and grace, they will make the switch. It's natural. The goal of life is happiness, survival and the avoidance of pain, haven't you heard? Making the switch from win to mac will at least reduce pain, and might just make you a little bit happier and healthier as well. I'm interested to see your reply to this message. I'll also be interested in seeing how much of your reply will involve 'witty', yet essentially meaningless pedantic sarcasm, and how much of your reply will just lay out a no bull-s**t answer to my question. As for evangelism: Everybody naturally stands and speaks up for something they believe in. The computer world has been abusing its users for a long time. Its about time a company stepped forward and took more responsibility for its user base. Evangelism aside -> thank God for apple. a breath of fresh air in the stifling paranoid world of win pc's.

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Wonder no more, yes I am familiar with OS X and I despise it for many of the reasons I despise where windows is going. Its software for the zombie clickers, the mass unthinking, for those who'd rather bitch about the size of the icons or the presence/absence of chrome handles.
The computer is a tool, a means to get things done, not an object of worship. And when choosing the tools I require, in no circumstance are your revered fruit computers the best tool for the job.
I run a diverse mix of windows and nix boxes that's whats good for me, and I don't need some ex-hippy skivvied evangelist to help me decide, more importantly I don't need to evangelise that what works for me must be right for everyone.
The best computer is like the best car, best home or ideal size serve of Portuguese chicken, there is NO right answers! But if you guys want to insist that fruit computers are the only way well there is plenty of insult and sarcasm left for such opinions. Now back to your dank bedrooms the lot of you.

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

Whoa. raindog, put that foam back in your mouth!
If your undies are going to knot up so badly over an OS and you need to fight about it, then maybe you would feel more at home among the hundreds of rabid windows fans in Charlie Brooker's "I hate Macs" article. Your fanboy peers will undoubtedly welcome your arrival, and It's good that you still have plenty of insult and sarcasm left to post. I'd just love to see VirusFree or some of the other trolls over there have a field day with you, because frankly, your tantrums are not worth anyone's time here.
Here you go, knock yourself out:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2006031,00.html


29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

What a sad little Man with a sad little cause! Fanboys of any creed not required!

You'd do well to actually comprehend what has actually been said. Insult and sarcasm is non denominational and applies equally to fanboy fanatics for any brand.

Why not read read Ashton Mills's article on P18 of April APC it would offer you far more help than trolling nondescript crusade web-links.

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

So your anger IS genuine! Talk about sad little men; your tantrums make me laugh! I see you're slower than I initially gave you credit for, you have a knack for coming up with the silliest statements ever! Your: "I care little for Bills monopoly and I don't think Steve's would be any better." is laughable, sounds as if you're roasting inside a furnace and say: "I don’t fancy these fourth-degree burns much, but I wouldn't like to freeze either!" At least try to get out of the oven before worrying about icebergs! And your little "Wonder no more, yes I am familiar with OS X" lie blew up in your face more dramatically than the Hindenburg. Afrogalactic shot that down spectacularly over a week ago thanks to your "used car warranty!" stupidity, even if you're too pusillanimous to acknowledge your ignorance. How can I tell you're a worthless Windows evangelist fanboy? Well, no one could be naive enough to believe the propaganda you keep spewing, so you must be a shill. Whether paid or pro bono is irrelevant, you have no credence. And now you come back to let us know that you're not only a full-fledged clueless fanboy, but a coward as well. It's unsurprising that you wont take your hate to where it would be most welcomed. Oh, well... Being you is more than enough punishment I suppose. Chew on this for a while; might keep you from looking like a newbie next time:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wssenterprises/whynotmacfaq/
And no, I couldn't care less about you or what anyone else uses, so any "evangelist" or "fanboy" arguments coming from you are pointless and fall flat even before being issued. The only fanboy here is you. I don't really know and have nothing against you. You probably are a great guy for all I know, even if your area of expertise evidently lies far away from IT, but as a rule, if you have to resort to nastiness whenever your arguments fail you, then you probably won't get far before someone gives you the same treatment. "Despise" away lad, no one cares!


29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

OK curiosity got to me and I gloss over some more bits of your reply and yes you are right I am a really great guy, I tell myself this all the time and you are free to swoon at any time.

But flattery will in no way influence my quoted prices or hourly rates. :>


29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Didn't read the article, did you?

Your problem is you confuse me with someone who cares for a cause. Did you really review back through all my posts for your rabid reply? I'm flattered!
When I say all my posts I am making an assumption, I got bored somewhere between the 13th and 14th stupidity in your last reply and didn't bother reading the remainder. Who knows somewhere in there I've probably been accused of being a Nazi or a Nissan driver or English, all of which just makes me smile.

I guess I shouldn't taunt the inadequate it leaves me at such an unfair advantage.

I could devote more time to your education but if I did that I'd have to send you an invoice and I doubt you'd have the pocket money to cover it.

You can flame till the cows come home, (or was it Alpaca's on Old Mac Farm) but its obviously just making you bitter. Enjoy now, before I get bored with you and your back to typing to nobody.

If people could keep to the topic a be prepared to offer sane viewpoints and be open minded enough to accept alternate viewpoints then there would be no need for all the unpleasantness would there?
But I doubt you can and am happy to pull your chain for pleasure.

I never leave home without my sense of humour!



29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

[edited by APC to tone down the personal attack] 

Of course I didn't read your article! Unlike you I've no interest in searching for any of your references. You obviously do care a lot for your lost cause, and have read my reply from top to bottom feverishly many times from the very second it was posted, so there's no confusion there. Instead of being glued to the screen all day, drooling & waiting for me to return you should've mulled over how artully Afrogalactic tore you a new one, acknowledged your ignorance & stupidity and laughed at your own wackyness, but you instead further evidence your anger with an uptight rant. I bet you were doing an Exorcist impression while typing all that!

[snip]

If anyones' chain is being yanked here its yours, but you're welcome to try & believe otherwise, although deep down you know the bitter truth! Please don't let these observations imply that I don't like you. Even if I don't much respect you due to your fanboyism, you're still very entertaining & I wish to thank you for all that very expensive time & attention you'll be devoting to me in the months to come.

In this dog-eat-dog world of ours it's really nice to know that we can still get some things for free! I promise to enjoy our time together very much & await that invoice anxiously. Just make it out to: "Mad Madsen" and I'll tell you where you can sho... er, I mean send it to! Also, please note that by Godwin's Law I never called you a Nazi, Nissan driver or English, I did however say cowardly fanboy and uptight humorless fanatic. All of which will be quite easily shown in due course! Fun for me and tear-inducing for you. Have a nice weekend!



29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

What a strange way to tone down a reply! I didn't know that saying that someone is uptight & devoid of a sense of humor was considered a personal attack here. Everything else had already been established previously!

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Shush now! And please read the Ashton Mills article, all will be explained.

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

In reply the first time I used a Mac you were probably in a pram, and I've seen a few since then but the only site I see them in any numbers is at one customer site for a major advertising agency. Statistically its hardly on the radar.

There is no fight to be upheld, there is no right or wrong OS and this is something you had better catch on to. If you had not been so single minded you may have read some of my other posts on this forum, anyone accusing me of being a Microsoft fanboy has little or no clue and is setting themselves up for a guest wear of the fools hat.

The sooner the whole computer industry matures and gains some focus and stop believing ex hippy skivvy wearing evangelist and new born philanthropists the better we will all be.

I don't use Mac because for my purposes they dont suit the bill, that doesn't make them useless to other and I respect others may hold a different position. Likewise I am not going to blindly accept every cul-de-sac Microsoft wishes to take me on.
If I was to be a fan boy for anything it would be Linux but the realist in me say I have to tolerate a fair bit of Microsoft to remain profitable, and for now at least a mix of MS and Linux serves my purposes.

Back to the topic Dell deserve some bouquets and some brickbats and could learn a lot from Apple, likewise Apple could learn a lot from Dell. And fanboys of all persuasions could learn a hell of a lot if they just shut-up and listened.

I'm bored with this now, and with sad fools who will never see reason, but let's not see every thread poisoned with this fanboy soil, I really dont have the time to educate you all!!!

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

APC, Is it really necessary to be that overprotective with this pipsqueak? I know that's probably your way of enforcing a handicap to keep things even, which as far as I'm concerned is more than fair enough. God knows the poor dude could use it, but in all honesty he was already defeated & exposed long before I came along. You'd be doing him & others a disservice by not pointing out his obvious bias towards his meal ticket. Everyone can already see that he knows nothing outside his tiny M$ bubble, & if you think I've said something that wasn't already obvious, why not just have it pointed it out or edited by moderation instead of discarding all my posts altogether?


29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

APC administrator:

Please read the comment guidelines -- personal attacks will result in comment deletion. If you want to take up an issue with someone, do so by debating the points made in their comment, not attacking them as people.

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

I agree completely with your decision now that I realize what happened. I understand how facetiousness could be misconstrued for aggressiveness, but a real personal attack was in no way my intention, & I DID submit some legitimate arguments. My aim was mainly to show in a humorous manner something that almost everyone here already knows: That occasionally appearing to fling some symbolic & obviously unearnest criticism at one's own meal ticket is never enough to fool anyone into believing impartiality, especially if the underlying tone in everything one writes evidently pushes a thinly-veiled agenda.
I'm actually a very cheerful person, who would never really attack anyone in anger in order to genuinely hurt them, & if you examine closely the text of those last censored posts you'll see that it's all just some good-natured ribbing issued in good fun (& without any really harsh words or anger! Some of it was actually quite cute & original!), that ultimately manages to clearly convey some very valid points (which were already self-evident from the beginning, I was just driving them home).
In any case, I wanted to thank you for taking the time to explain the situation to me. I'll make sure to be more careful in the future in order to avoid injuring anyone by mistake & do my best to clarify more thoroughly when I'm speaking in jest (which is usually always unless I specifically indicate otherwise! Let's not be so serious & try to keep it at least a tiny bit fun shall we?).
See you next week, have a great weekend everyone! (yes, everyone, raindog included. I love all creatures great & small!)
-Cheers!

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

APC is in no way selective with their editing. The subtle difference is with staying within the guideline. I can heavily mock fanboys of any ilk but within the APC guideline and as a matter of personal pride I try not to mock individuals.
The MS fanboy and meal-ticket implications are fanciful in the extreme, but rather than labour that point how about a return to the topic? And please do read the Ashton Mills article it helps put crusades into perspective.

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

As has been stated before, I'm not emotionally-invested in any ridiculous feuds, & not being partial to any particular product don't have the inclination to see everything as a OS holy war & use that to desperately distract attention from the real points being made.
Since everyone here has already made up their minds on who may be labeled a fanboy & who has never even mentioned any brands or tried to use some obvious "I don't really like it, but there's just no other way! Let's all embrace it if we want to live!" pseudo argument to preach to the flock, we might now move ahead & establish the following may it please the court:
1-Unbiased people who have lives don't really care, or need to go search for references outside this thread, especially when the point being made can easily be demonstrated by the posts above.
2-Trying to distract everyone by dancing desperately around & refusing to explain a "used car warranty" post no matter what, while pettily trying to establish an OS war as the real topic, speaks volumes about one's single-mindedness & insecurities.
3-If I ever run away scared, futilely trying to make people believe that I'm "bored" instead, I will in effect leave (don't worry, that's not happening anytime soon), instead of coming back to evidence that I'm willing to show my face nowhere else but this forum, & only if everyone else has both arms tied behind their backs!
4-My aim here is not to make a point per se. Every single one of my points has already being made for me in a deafening fashion, as is evident to everyone but one. I'm just here to enjoy watching a desperate dance, at the end of which I just have to mention again that "used warranty" issue in order to relaunch a tirade about fanboyism, meal ticket defending & OS feuding!
5-I hope everyone realizes I don't really mean to attack anyone with this! ...just pointing out a few fun facts in hopes of sparking a lively discussion! There's still a lot to be said, stay tuned for next week!

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Comments as follows. :>

1.)Yes lots can be determined from what is written in this thread but dont you think it is a particularly narrow and myopic standpoint to ignore other references. Obviously not much of a thirst for knowledge.

2.)A simple enough analogy, but if its too hard to grasp, we can all move along. Someones inability to comprehend does in no way imply any single mindedness or insecurity on my behalf. That is no more than wishful and unsubstantiated speculation.

3.)Well as bore-some and tedious as this is if you wish to make further unsubstantiated accusations, I guess I can spend a moment here and there to watch the hole get dug. Who knows one day a fact may even occur amongst all the hope and fantasy.

4.)If you aim is not to make a point what exactly is it? You mention points being made but considered ones are few and far between. It is clever that your MAC can emulate a television and that you can tune in regularly to watch "Desperate Dance" (is that the one with Daryl Sommers?) but that ability has little to do with Apple Dell or even fanboyism and exists on other platforms, even Dell have some similar offerings.

5.)Pointless accusations is hardly lively, meaningful, or even interesting discussion. "Not meaning to" is no defense, for all we know Hitler probably didn't mean to invade Poland.
Facts? what facts? Opinions are not facts, everyone is allowed an opinion though (one per customer preferred). Listening and respecting considered opinions of others can be a valuable and rewarding exercise. But to approach any argument with a "mine is the only right answer" mindset, while ignoring the wealth of knowledge offered by others, (even those with differing opinions) is foolish in the extreme. That kind of zealotry is best left to religious fanatics and other screwballs.

So to recap, you do not believe I am a computer professional? Yet you believe I have a meal ticket from Microsoft? That's two strikes I guess I can stay tuned for the final third. :>


29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

When did I say that an IT pro is like an amateur PR guy or vice-versa? Let's not get confused here! ...Hey that reminds me about that insightful "car warranty" post, which seems to hint that one of us might not know what he's talking about! But we need to carefully analyze it to figure out who that is! Believe me, I'm as eager as the next guy to finally unravel that mystery!
I must say I was awed to witness how one can go on at length about something without actually addressing it. The frantic subject-changing & off-topic movements, single-mindedly singing about zealotry (when no one else is a zealot) while sidestepping the grim implications of that "warranty" comment with breathtaking panache & leaving those 5 points, not only standing unscathed, but now also utterly confirmed! Wow! What a performance!
On a related note: If I ever start lashing out in pain & complaining about imagined accusations to my person, please remind me that no one else is taking this seriously & that the rest of the readers can easily see what's really going on! Disclaiming any intention to hurt is actually a pretty good argument! It immunizes me against guilt-trips (& I already had my invective shots!) & evidences that if anyone gets upset with the message it's no one's fault but their own! i.e: "I'm offended because what I hear is detrimental to my self-image as it obliterates whatever point I'm trying to make!" Note: That last Hitler reference back there really broke the Godwin-meter & pretty much ended the argument right there! (they should amend that law to include OS wars) But DONT leave the thread yet! After we sort out this "warranty" business we still have lots to discuss -especially about that impending Apple OS monopoly we fear so much! See? Nothing's unsubstantiated & all the work has already been done for me!
So to recap, all things remain exactly as they should be & I can keep hitting homeruns from here to eternity! Now how about that "used car warranty" eh?
(-;

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

You say we have lots to discuss, but discussion is simply not possible. For discussion to occur an open mind is required from both parties and you can see anything other than richousness of fruit as the only way.

You have to keep up with the argument and not dwell on items you cannot grasp, or do some open minded research. To labour incessantly on concepts a myopic view precludes you from grasping, is becoming tiresome for all the better informed readers.

Just hum the crusade song quietly it wont annoy too many I'm sure.

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

You mean discussion's not possible since I'm the only party cursed with an open mind? Aww, that's a shame! Don't give up so soon! Are you sure you don't want to give me at least a little more attitude to try to distract me from those "hard-to-grasp" items you mention?
"richousness[sic] of fruit"?!!! -Man! I love you to bits for invariably saying & assuming the most ridiculous things! If it makes you feel better we could try to pretend that the real "level of expertise" of the author of such highly-technical & sophisticated works as the "used car warranty" or "wonder no more" posts isn't yet painfully obvious! Hey, I could even say you're smart, open-minded & knowledgeable if you want! Whatever it takes to secure your very entertaining company! Let's ignore for now that hard-to-swallow pride that prevents us from admitting our absolute lack of experience & chalk it up to some bogus alleged grasping-deficiency of others!
I sympathize with your plight. We shouldn't have to dwell on things that make us sad! Like, say... our own comments in this thread, many of which render "laughable" any claims of knowledge & lay bare our shortcomings for all the world to see! Maybe if we close our eyes, cover our ears & yell "Skivvy!" long enough, that awful thing called reality will perhaps just disappear?
You seem to have more than enough quandaries to deal with, so don't add to that by worrying too much about annoying us better informed readers! We gather around in increasingly greater numbers as the thread inches upwards on the "MOST DISCUSSED" list & laugh heartily as we realize what's really going on here! So no, it's not becoming tiresome for us at all! We're having a great time!
Fortunately, a mind -open or otherwise- is not needed to desperately dance around an item that evidences something so glaringly obvious that it's absurd to try to hide it! So again... Are we planning to address that "Used car warranty" thing yet or should I just bring it up next time? (cue music)
:-D

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Your reality is yours alone, the rest of the planet would attach the tag fantasy, but whatever floats your boat.
All these assumptions.
You assume I care.
You assume your rhetoric has an impact.
You assume a Windows fan-base is out to get you.
You assume your making a difference.
You assume magazine forums are a vehicle for your myopic fanaticism.
You assume people think skivvies are cool.
You assume I am arguing with you and not merely taking the Micky at yet another sad fan-boy.
You assume I work for or are paid by Microsoft.
You assume your tirade gives you ascendancy.
You assume you could win an argument. (as if)
And through all this you have some bizarre fixation of about cars? The sough of fixation held only by teenagers a year or two below legal driving age.
But did make one valid point earlier, "Yes I am a really great guy". :>

Spoiling the day of a simpleton whose belief that last post wins is now my sole reason for reply to your nonsense and I may well become bored with that soon. But feel free to believe you are right fanatics often do. It is content not post count that is important try to grasp the concept.

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

will there be any arguement left at all when the replies are only one character wide?

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

I've got no problem if this "raindog" character is off-limits for some reason. All I've done is point out some very specific items within this thread that evidence his absolute ignorance about what he's talking about here (his previous posts within the thread ARE within topic aren't they?). It's become evident to everyone (even him) that he has no arguments & that he's trying to hide behind incessant tirades that make no sense & have nothing to do with the topic rather than to just swallow his pride & admit the glaring knowledge deficiency that his posts betray. I haven't attacked him personally (unless evidencing his "savvy" by pointing out his previous "arguments" in this same thread may be considered an attack!) or said anything objectionable, & still my replies have seemingly gone unnoticed (while his posts are up there even when obviously bitter & irrelevant!). Anyone following this will realize that I just have to repeat the same line to set him off into a predictable ranting frenzy that further proves my points, so if the issue is that I might be using his handle & writing his replies -seeing how they so perfectly confirm my own, I assure you, that's not me at all!
If the issue is something else, then I'd be more than grateful if you could point out to me what caused my latest posts to be discarded (via email if you'd rather not display this!), because I've followed every guideline as far as I can see (a lot better than him at any rate!). If you don't see fit to display those posts (or this) for whatever reason I'll understand & accept it cheerfully. I'd already reduced the exchange into an endless cycle that proved my point further with each iteration so he was making it kind of repetitive anyway. I don't even mind if he deceives himself into believing he's finally won his first argument! (when he'd clearly lost even before I arrived!)
Thanks in any case!

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

APC administrator:

This lengthy personal debate between you too is just very off-topic and distracting to the main thread. Any chance you could take it outside? ;-)

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Flush it at will APC admin. The mutterings of a madman will have no place when they choose to write the memoirs of the universe. my pleas for on topic remained unheeded, perhaps best to erase the whole sorry mess and save this dad character further embarrassment.

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dad:

Actually I was the first one to suggest that!
Anyway, thanks for the reply. I'm quite satisfied about the outcome & have no problem leaving things as they are. Although -strictly speaking- exposing the ignorance of the madman that has caused this mess -thus debunking his every "argument"- should be considered on-topic!
I'll even abstain from mentioning the "warranty" issue to cut short new tirades. I trust you'll censor his future posts here as well & not just mine!

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

You Trekkie's always have to have the last word, don't you. :> Its now time for you to practice the ancient art of Shush and cease annoying the adults, Tiresome One!!!

29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Undecided:

Raindog, you were asked if you really knew Mac OS, if you really tried it for yourself and tested whether it's pretty much crap or not. But all could say is that you're "familiar" with it. That's not enough. Especially when you keep talking trash about it. You just don't sound off as credible. Nor sensible. Cool down.

I myself am not a Mac user. I've been using PCs my whole life (for 20+ years). I never thought to make the switch. But now I'm not too sure. I still have doubts and reservations (hard to teach an old dog new tricks) to try a Mac. But I've seen good arguments here. It's good to hear people with strong feelings about which OS they prefer. I just have to make a distinction about credible-back-up-by-experience-comments versus nonsense-rantings.

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

And I answered that I knew Mac OS? Next question?

Familiar is subjective, would "very familiar" make you more at ease. I am more than familiar with what a Mac will and equally importantly will not do.

The "crap or not" answer you seek is simplistic at best, just because a product doesn't suit your needs does not make it crap to others. If you read again you will find I am taking the nuggets out of the skivvied McFaithful who can see no other alternative. It's them who I have trouble with not the products they evangelise. But if mocking chrome handles pulls their chain then why not.

You say it's good to hear the arguments of those with strong feelings, I'd beg to differ there, I prefer to hear from those who can offer a reasoned and balanced viewpoint. Viewpoints that can accept that each products have merits and equally weaknesses.

If you choose to listen to fanatics you will never get credible comparisons of available product. The Monochromists who can only see Black & white are missing the point and I reserve the right to mock them incessantly.

It's up to you to decide who you believe is credible, who has had cross the board experience, etc. No skin of my nose who you believe.

There are things and applications for windows that are not available on MAC, There are things MAC does better than windows, there are advantages to Linux that the commercial players cant match and equally there are weaknesses in Linux that limit it's mainstream adoption. But if you want to believe the "my MAC does everything better" rhetoric go right ahead.
Those McFanatics dont tell you the limitations, because they dont want to, and what they put forward is a myth.
This is in no way a problem with the MAC, its a problem with fanatics peddling their fantasies.

Tried to get MAC support for 3rd party systems such as PLCs or Automation? Good Luck! Tried to find a MAC equivalent of Visio that supports other companies design scripts? That MAC based ConceptDraw isn't such a close equivalent once you try to do such things.
Want to shoot onscreen aliens, PCs offers much more choice! though why you'd not use a console escapes me.

So Intel MACs can run windows? Sure they can but try pushing the limits of hardware support! Good luck again.

Yet take tasks like desktop publishing and MAC shines above the other offerings.

Interested in a MAC go try one, that will tell you more about whether its suitable for your needs than any fanboy's rantings.

No doubt one of the myopic faithful will feel hell driven to pick this post apart and I will have no hesitation to mock the bejeezus out of he who does.













29 February 2008, 8:41 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

ikyouCrow:

well if you actually bought a DELL you could always pop the Resource CD in the machine and the application on it actually automatically detects all the devices and shows you all the drivers you can install.

all the user has to do at that point is choose the driver (or the device from the list rather) they need and they're done.

the cd is also bootable and comes with advanced hardware diagnostics software (written by DELL for DELLs) which includes a symptom tree for users who can't tell off the bat what the exact problem is.

i'm sure this article is just more evidence of DELL not communicating the existence of these super-useful utilities to the user, or people just don't read the label on the disc that says drivers and utilities...

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

Wrong !! Drivers on CD while convenient especially without net access will generally be out of date and can be completely wrong for newer or patched operating systems. But that isn't a Dell only phenomenon, it applies equally to any developing platform.
Dell's resource for accessing drivers is better than most but could still do with improvement.
The Dell service tag system makes retrieving drivers online quick and easy bus could be improved particularly when multiple options are available.

29 February 2008, 8:38 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Afrogalactic:

Regarding OS X's boot camp and its ability to run windows programs. I hope everyone reading this post is clear -> Apple is not "emulating" windows. Boot camp provides the real-deal windows OS. Therefore you need a legitimate copy of windows in order to run it on an Apple computer. Windows also takes full advantage of the capacity of your mac specifications. I repeat, it is not some dodgy emulation of windows!

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Martin Gifford:

We waited 6 years for Vista and it turns out that it doesn't run on average recent machines that were recommended by magazines a year or two ago, and it still has virus vulnerability.

I wasn't keeping up with the MS info, so I presumed that after 6 years of work and plenty of money, the biggest operating system company in the world, Microsoft, was going to produce a OS that was virus-proof. But they failed! Can you make an OS that doesn't need antivirus and yearly antivirus updates? No.

We need high spec components and we need a yearly antivirus subscription. Also, the new MS Office is very different to the old system, so do we really want to learn that?

I don't understand why magazines still say you must buy Vista. It's such a joke. The new Apple adds with the young cool Apple guy and the tired old PC guy say it all.

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

tony test:

test comment bla bla

29 February 2008, 8:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

timo:

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29 February 2008, 8:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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