How Vista screws dual-booting nirvana

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APC administrator22 August 2006, 6:19 AM

I just discovered you don't have to 'dual-boot' between Windows and Linux. With the right boot-loader installed you can switch between them without a full reboot. But when I say the right boot-loader, I mean one not produced by Microsoft.


The other day I found myself staring out the window next to my desk. It was around 6.30 in the evening, and the lights had just gone on over Hyde Park.

The whole scene was one of winter serenity, aided considerably by the window sill, which prevented me from being exposed to the chaos that is Elizabeth St, Sydney, at peak hour.

In my sanguine state, I didn't even notice that I had just told Ubuntu to hibernate instead of shutdown. Generally, I tend to avoid hibernating my notebook. Over the years I've become accustomed to treating an OS like my office; the first thing you do when you open the door in the morning is open up some windows.

So I hopped on a train and headed back to my place, a.k.a. Casa del Penguins - more because of the absence of heating than the (admittedly above average) volume of Linux machines in attendance.

After a little dinner, and a vain attempt to warm myself under a pile of stuffed animals, I booted my notebook into Windows XP for a little bit of World of Warcraft.

All well and good, and entirely within the parameters of an ordinary evening. It wasn't until I got to work the next day that I found something which made me squeal for joy: my Ubuntu session was still hibernated!

Yes folks, that long rambling anecdote was all leading up to this point - a good boot loader, in this case GRUB, allows users to do wonderful things.

Since finding this, I've checked it out and even Windows XP can be simultaneously hibernated with Ubuntu on my notebook, meaning that I can always have a session of each ready.

Sheesh, Windows recovers ridiculously quickly from a hibernate, somewhere in the order of 10 seconds... I wonder if I'll ever shut it down again?

It's kinda like virtualisation nirvana - today!

Well, now that the hyperbole is out of the way, it's a great find, one which I assume many other Linux users who aren't so scared of the hibernate function have had the joy of discovering before me.

It does also bring you a step closer to the end result of true virtualisation - fast switching between operating systems, admittedly not quite the ALT + TAB affair that the proponents of true virtualisation describe, but still very handy.

Now, the seriously ill informed amongst us may be wondering why the headline attacks Windows Vista, and I have yet to even mention it. Why, because of this blog post from late last year on MSDN about the Vista boot loader gentle reader, which explains that Vista will continue to wipe your master boot record on install. And so begins "The case against installing Windows Vista (volume 658, 943)".

Nerfing a PCs master boot record (MBR) in order to install your operating system is, to put it mildly, somewhat unfriendly behaviour. And this line from Microsoft about their users finding the OS too complex to install if they are presented with an option to reveal advanced options is frankly the usual despicable buck passing and FUD I expect from the company behind "Get the Facts".

And who the hell runs an OS installer to repair their MBR? I just whip out Knoppix, mate.

Sorry, hasn't anyone mentioned that your Sysadmin tools are a total joke?

That, in order to pull in the bucks from pricey certifications, you've dumbed the tools and procedures down to the extent that even our (Mac-olyte) online editor Dan Warne passed his MCP qualification with no study whatsoever at TechEd last year?

No amount of posturing by some "frank and honest" (cough) blogger from Microsoft is going to hide the fact that it's yet another example of business as usual at Redmond; embrace, extend and extinguish - in this case your entire system configuration.

Every Linux distribution detects the presence of another OS and configures the system accordingly, even being nice enough to add Windows to your boot loader automatically (should you choose to keep it).

Why can't Vista simply include a decent boot loader, thus removing the onus from the user, or the installer, to determine what boot loader is installed and configure it accordingly?

Interestingly, if your boot loader is a Microsoft only one, and the installer detects that it is a newer version than the one it is installing, it leaves it intact. Which pretty much makes all of the arguments in that post complete dross.

And besides, it's not the open source community who are unwilling to publish specifications and allow products to compete with theirs on a level playing field, so, for Microsoft, working out how to interact with open source software is actually a lot easier than it is going back the other way.

As such, it's a matter of some of the management at Microsoft getting their heads out of their collective posteriors and waking up to the fact that interoperability isn't just a vague desire of some consumers - it's the single most important one.

I say management because, if this commendable post by Chris Wilson of the Internet Explorer team has even a grain of truth in it, the engineers at the company are already completely aware of it.

Considering how Windows interferes with my ability to interoperate with the systems I need to in order to do my job, I'm sure they are painfully aware of it.

Whether you're talking about the consumer side, and making sure that your iPod works with your LG refrigerator, or about the enterprise side, and ensuring that documents can be opened and printed out correctly wherever you email a file, interoperability is the only game in town these days.

If Dar/wine were mature enough to allow OS X and Linux users to run absolutely any Win32 application, Microsoft would be finished. Kaput.

Take note, Redmond; the goodwill is gone. People use your software because they have to, not because they want to, and all the aero glass in the world won't change that. Every time you make a decision like this in designing your software, God kills a Windows PC I maintain.

And every time one dies, it gets reborn as a SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 machine, or an Ubuntu machine, meaning that they become emissaries of change.

Just having them there for people to look at and play with is the best advertisement for Linux I have found, because, in terms of performance and usability, they make Windows Vista look positively medieval.

After all, they even open all your document formats - something your own Office products have a hard time doing consistently.

And, yes, I do have Vista machines here too - it's a frigging PC magazine. Users generally come away from an experience with them confused and disoriented. If that was your aim, good job!

Getting back to the catalyst for this largely stream of consciousness opinion piece: Vista, keep your paws off my MBR. The fact that your boot loader is completely primitive is your fault, not mine.


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aussiebear:

LOL! You too, eh?
(Another Sydney computer user wondering why Microsoft insists on dominating the MBR with every Windows install...Domination, that's what they strive for!). :)

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

J_K9:

Yes another example of exactly what you stated:

embrace, extend and extinguish

It disgusts me that such a large company (in fact, the largest) goes to such extents to attempt to remove any competition.

I know I will not be installing Vista on any of my PCs - at least, not soon. And if I do install it on one of my dual-booting PCs, I will then boot into KNOPPIX and fix my GRUB with a few simple lines:

$ su
Password:
# grub
grub> root(hd0,0)
grub> setup(hd0)
grub> quit

Sure, you may have to edit your menu.lst after that to make sure that both OSs are available options, but at least it can be fixed fairly easily (and even moreso on Ubuntu: http://tinyurl.com/lpu6y)

But, it's still a nuisance that this will have to be done to get Vista's bootloader off the MBR. Microsoft trying to be smart (and failing), once again.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

slashousdottus:

"It disgusts me that such a large company (in fact, the largest) goes to such extents to attempt to remove any competition."

Then you had better not investigate AMD's lawsuit against Intel, either.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aries-Belgium:

Great reading.

I completely agree with your statement that MS is destroying itself. I think the descisions they made the last years were made by a child. Because this is really childish behaviour: "No, I can only be your best friend". Total stupidity!

Regards.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Trevor:

As a new Linux user who got really excited by seeing his PC load up GRUB and display

[SuSe] Linux
windows1
windows2,

I was excited. But prior to installing either OS onto my machine [fresh Seagate HDD], I intuitively decided that it would be best to install XP first and then SuSe because, somehow, I KNEW that Windows would bully around poor SuSe-Q and her sweet little MBR. Now, I think it's worse to have assumed that then to find out that Windows is implementing it. Am I crazy to think that if Microsoft doesn't do something about it's doesn't play well with others mentality they'll sink? Or are they just too freakin' huge to give a damn?

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Charlie Hayes:

You make it sound like the Linux boot loaders are worth using. During all my experience over the years installing Linux (which I must admit am not an expert in all things Linux) I have never once been able to set up a boot loader to boot Windows, Linux, and BeOS at the same time as easily as you make it out.

I prefer the BeOS Boot loader (bootman) which you run (bootman from the command line) and select the partitions you want to be bootable using a GUI, edit the text to appear in the menus (again, using a GUI) pick a default partition and a timeout or no timeout if you prefer (again, GUI) and then click save to MPR. It’s a LOT simpler than Linux’s config files and command prompt programs, and It works fantastically well. The only problem is Linux never sticks a boot loader in its partition, so when bootman invokes the boot part of the partition (I may have the terminology incorrect here), it fails. However with Windows, bootman works perfectly.

And with BeOS, if the boot loader ever gets out of whack, you just insert the BeOS CD, hold space while it boots, select the BeOS partition you want to boot from (the hard disk or the CD) and then continue on. You can then reinstall bootman into the MBR, and all is nice. With Linux (at least from all of my experiences) you can’t just boot into an existing install easily. I’m always told by the installer or rescue disks to use the floppy (WHAT year is this???) that I made when I installed, which I never actually make.

So in summery, Windows may be mean and kill the MBR on install, but Linux is far from where BeOS was years ago. Don’t make it sound like it is. Of course things may have changed in the last ~6 months.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Peter T:

The Spanish word for penguins is "pinguinos". Hence, you live at "Casa del pinguinos".

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Jeffrey Rollin:

Yet another reason NOT. To install. Vista. Ever.

As if we needed more.

Windows users, stick with XP and teach MS and the hardware vendors that you are NOT going to buy another perfectly good machine just run another copy of (any) OS. Or switch to Linux or Mac OS.

Linux users, stop dual-booting.

Microsoft, look on our works, ye mighty, and despair.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Steven LEach:

Thank you for the Ubuntu URL to fix my MBR after My Beta Vista Hosed it.
I am with you. When Support for WinXP goes away, I go of M$soft. I have already warned all my clients and they are either different support, or moving with me.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

CpILL:

Vista? Is that whats going on in PC land...

WoW! My god! No wonder I haven’t herd from you in months. I was wondering: "Declan hasn't had a rant in AGES!" just today, and now I know why...

You know they have support groups now.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Sean:

I have a multi-boot setup with a few different Linuxes... when I installed the latest Ubuntu, it over-wrote the MBR without asking. It's easy enough to fix if you know what you're doing, but that's one question every installer should ask no matter what. Does Linux really have to be dumbed down to the level of Windows?

To the poster above who thinks "you can’t just boot into an existing install easily", try booting up a Slackware cd and see the example on the first screen. I'm sure there are other ways, but it works for me.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

silencer:

Actually it's "pingüinos", and you use "del" for singular, not plural, so it's "casa del pingüino" :)

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Declan Kennedy:

Peter T and Silencer: cheers guys!

Let me just get this straight - it’s "del" for the singular form of "of the", is it "de los" for the plural?

So if it’s "house of the penguins" it would be "Casa de los Pingüinos"?

Merde! Je parle français plus bien...

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Stomfi:

Lack of Interoperability and the three Es were the main factors for the decline of IBM from its position of world domination in the mid 80's. The users just migrated to UNIX for interoperability and to MS for lower single desktop function costs.

Every tactic that MS has perpetrated since then in its history has been straight out of the old IBM marketing strategy bible.

That MS is following this strategy to the letter, even when they have the living example of the IBM decline and recovery (not recorded in the bible) doesn't say much for their management skills.

The behaviour is what one could expect from narrow minded old tenet believers, not supposedly dynamic leaders embracing the new.

If they continue to follow this old marketing strategy, they are inevitably doomed to become a smaller player in the emerging cooperative market system.

Revisiting IBM's history of world domination, one can predict it will happen to MS within the next five years.

Roll on the revolution of change. Hopefully we will see a 21st century human interface and a world wide personal supercomputing network.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wes:

Its unfortunate that Microsoft has chosen to pretend rather than live in the real world. I had thought that Vista would have been able to detect that there are other OS and then allow for interoperability accordingly.

I like the fact that when last time I had problems with GRUB I managed to fix it using the Ubuntu Live CD but then again I can also use my GAG boot disk.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

bubbl07:

"Linux" is just the kernel. For those of you complaining about poor choices for bootloaders, it's usually distro-dependent. Some (like Gentoo) require the user to edit configuration files manually. Others will prompt you. If you are dissatisfied with the way a distro handles MBR installation, then you at least have the choice to use a different distro and know that the bulk of applications can be used again. I do agree that hosing an MBR without prompting is bad, and Microsoft should at least give more experienced users the choice of how to write the MBR.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Alan:

"del" is the concatination of "del los"

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Peter T:

Yes, silencer if correct. It is "Casa de los pinguinos" or "La casa de los pinguinos".

I realised as soon as I had made the earlier posting that I'd forgotten to change "del" to its plural of "de los".

I know about the accent marks above the 'u' but had no idea how to make them with my keyboard.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aston:

Good article, a pleasure to read.

Ever since I heard about palladium and Fritz-chips - back in the day of "Windows Longhorn" - I thought anyone with the slightest sympathy for open-source software would have to be mad to install Microsoft's next operating system. Everything I've heard since has pushed me further towards thinking that installing Vista, in terms of good ideas, is like taking a perfectly decent car, and giving it square wheels.

The only thing I've heard about Vista that I liked enough to even think about changing from XP was the use of PCI-express GPU's in general processes, to make use of the extra pipelines. Given the disadvantages of Vista, however, I'm not upgrading unless I absolutely have to, and if I absolutely have to upgrade, I'm using Linux.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aston:

"I know about the accent marks above the ‘u’ but had no idea how to make them with my keyboard."

Alt+0252

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Akin:

Make sure that your notebook doesn't gave 2 Gb of memory other wise Windows will throw and error and won't allow you to hibernate. Go figure... No there's no patch, known issue...

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mike R:

Vista is only interesting in that it is the first Windows release in years. I left XP years ago to force myself in into the world of Linux. Recently I jumped into OS X on a Mac. I have XP installed via Parallel's Workstation (as well as Ubuntu). I want to be free of it entirely, but am held back by a few apps. I dread Vista, having my interest only teased by the opportunity to explore it. I'm entranced by OSX and Apple. Mac OSX brings POSIX to the user in an easy frienly way.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

DJohnston:

Charlie Hayes said: "During all my experience over the years installing Linux (which I must admit am not an expert in all things Linux) I have never once been able to set up a boot loader to boot Windows, Linux, and BeOS at the same time as easily as you make it out."
I use a commercial bootloader to boot my BeOS, Windows, and Linux partitions. Since the bootloader resides in the MBR, the boot record for each OS is in that OS's boot partition. To say that Linux can't put its bootloader (lilo or grub) in anything but the MBR is just ridiculous. If that were so, I wouldn't be able to use the commercial bootloader.
And, yes, I am familiar with BeOS's gui for its bootloader. Similar tools are available for both lilo and grub, and are contained in many Linux distros. Granted, some Linux distros actually overwrite the MBR without any warning.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

stiffxiii:

I managed to get it to boot with x64 and sled10.

Changed the linux boot loader to LILO, copy the bootmngr from the vista disk to all my NTFS partitions and set Vista drive as the boot drive for windows, this contained all the neccesary boot files for x64 as well.

I was really proud of myself. :D

stiff

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Peter T:

I am curious, how relevant is this in the context of programs such as Xen? doesn't MS have some type fo free equivalent? I would have thought them to be a better option.

I've never used Xen or similar, so, as said, I'm simply curious.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Fduch:

Article is dumb.
Why Vista? Even Win98 rewrites MBR.
So the article should say "don't install windows"

Why Linux detects Windows but Windows doesn't detect Linux?
How many Windows' are there and how many kinds of Linux?

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tom:

I'll just enable my MBR security function in the BIOS and let Vista have a nice day.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Luiz Amaral:

Well, if you start frm scratch, this is it:

make sure your partitions are pretty well drew on your HD;

install windows first;

instal linux;

kaboom! you have a grub loader taking on the MBR.

BUT, if you wanna install windows AFTER you install windows, well, i never tried hahahaha

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

jj:

If you think Vista is bad, how about 3rd party 'system restore' apps. i.e. PCAngel.

After installing Ubuntu I can't get Windows to re-install. Seems like PCAngel swaps the partitions around for some reason.

My own fault really, I should have used a boot disk and left the MBR alone until I was sure I did not need XP anymore.

Idea's anyone?

JJ

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

michael:

Just a note:

Following the instructions in this article are VERY DANGEROUS AND CAN DO VERY BAD THINGS TO YOUR PARTITIONS.

I used this kind of setup ~2 years ago, so I could boot up Windows 2000 faster. I found that there are some bugs (at the time I didn't have hibernation in Linux, but it still applies):

- Windows would try to put some of my hardware into a power saving mode, which would make the devices unusable under Linux. This only effected my network card. I had to go into the device manager and tell Windows not to put it to sleep. This problem is far worse than it was 2 years ago (I'm talking about a desktop system) - lots more of my computer's hardware can go to sleep.
- Windows still leaves it's filesystems "mounted" while on hibernate. This can be very dangerous, as I found I would copy a file to my FAT32 partition from Linux, and it wouldn't show up in Windows at all. This gets worse if you hibernate Linux - it will *also* leave your Windows drives mounted, and when you switch back, it's possible you can leave the kernel very confused. While it's possible to unmount your Windows partitions from Linux before hibernation, Windows doesn't offer you this luxury.

If you want to do this "hack" SAFELY, you will need a removable USB hard drive for your shared partition, and remember to unmount and disconnect it each time you switch. You'll also need to only ever mount your Windows partitions in Linux read only.

This trick is almost too good to be true, and if you're not careful you'll screw your Windows install up fast.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

SirYes:

Actually, there's a simple, yet powerful option. It's called "copy your MBR *before* installing another OS". If you don't know for sure then *assume* that the installer will overwrite the MBR without question. Better safe than sorry.

If I have a copy of the MBR of every boot manager (be it Windows', LILO, Grub or something else) in conveniently named files, I can freely switch between them. The magic command is called "dd" in the Linux world and the only other thing needed is a bit of realistic planning (and maybe a pencil plus a sheet of paper).

During my encounters with different versions of Windows and Linux distributions I was able to boot Linux with Windows' boot manager as well as boot Windows with Linux's boot manager. And I've done it several times without much hassle.

Though I agree that having a nice and easy way of setting up bootable partitions (using bootman, for example) is a big, big plus. With a lot less chance of screwing something along the way.

Peace.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Matt Power:

Re. the hibernation.

The only (inconsequentail, perhaps) downside to hibernating windows is that Linux will detect that its in hibernation and not allow you to access that drive.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Randy Clements:

Reason Windows whacks the MBR is because they cannot fit it in the first 512 bytes.

Boot process is to first try the first 512 bytes of the drive. If it's not there, it goes on to find a boot loader in the first partition, etc. Since MS can't make it fit in 512 bytes, their method is to wipe it out completely, so the BIOS goes on to finding boot loader elsewhere.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

rich:

Why isn't this an anti-trust violation?

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Vista:

Vista isn't even finished. How about waiting to complain about confused users....

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

MicroSh1t-sux:

Yeah. I don't think MS cares about anything other than "interoperability with its own products and "standards." =0 We cannot assume that this corporate mamouth will care. Don't you worry though the wonderful and amazing Free and Open development community will step up to the plate and allow you to do all that you need. Rather than complain about MS just go send a donation to free/open devs that will build a solution. Send a donation to http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/ or join the mailing/dev list. Get involved and watch magically as a solution arises. =) Peace!

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Declan Kennedy:

Fduch said: Article is dumb.
Why Vista? Even Win98 rewrites MBR.
So the article should say "don't install windows"


Actually that's a good idea, I'll be sure to change it later...

The reason it's a big deal is that Vista is a 2007 release, Windows 98 was a 1998 release. Technology has moved on. Microsoft hasn't. So why should we pay $250 for Vista?

Why Linux detects Windows but Windows doesn’t detect Linux?
How many Windows’ are there and how many kinds of Linux?


They don't have to recognise that it's Debian or Slackware or Fedora or Gentoo, as far as most bootloaders are concerned you can call it "Krusty the Klown's Operating System Kapers!" in the boot menu and it doesn't make a difference.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Stephen Withers:

"install windows first;

"instal linux;

"kaboom! you have a grub loader taking on the MBR."

Mmmm, but if you're using BitLocker, the system will detect the changed MBR and refuse to boot. At least that's what Microsoft's Steve Riley seemed to say at Tech.Ed the other day (during the session that he said x86 Vista won't play 1080-line hi-def content at all - see and ).

Sure, not everyone is going to use BitLocker, but there are some good reasons why you'd want to.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Stephen Withers:

Well, I put the links in that last comment, but something deleted them. Let's try again:

http://snipurl.com/vdqk
and

http://tinyurl.com/gxwm5

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

[Triton]:

1-Put Linux disk to second position (change fstab and grub.conf according).
2-Install Windows (R) (C) TM (IT'S_OUR_PROPERTY) on the new first disk (It screw up no MBR at all).
3-Modify BIOS settings to boot on second disk.
4-add (eventually) the Win entry un grub (think about map (hd0) (hd1) and vice-versa)
5-Win can boot on its own MBR (why ?), grub, on the second disk, can boot Linux and Win (default is grub, then Lin [in my case, you can choose Win]).
6-Take your laptop and do the same... hmmm... AAAaaargh ! Where do I put the second disk ?

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Robo-blah:

What's funny is I was testing an earlier build of Vista (beta 1 timeframe) one day, and the Vista installer said "I've detected another boot loader on your machine, do you want to leave it?" (it wasn't those exact words, but just convert that sentence to microsoft-ese). I was so shocked that I sat back for a moment and re-read the dialog box like 6 times. My choice was obvious, but the boot loader got messed up anyways, however they didn't install the vista boot loader. Grub just wouldn't load (I found out later my bios boot configuration was less than ideal).

Anyways to make a long story longer, it seems that some Microsoft engineers had the right idea early on and that it was yet another feature removed by politics and whatever else these high level Microsoft folk are involved with.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

CKirocZ:

I am ashamed that I read this entire page. Anyone that knows enough about OS's to write about them also knows enough about them to circumvent the default MS behavior, or at least undo it. Windows- for those who want their "stuff" to "just work" Linux- for the more technically savvy users who want to do anything whenever they want I use both and believe both have a place in the world. One piece of advice to everyone, if you don't like it don't use it.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

pmh:

Seems to me that virtualization would answer this problem... confine Microsoft to a virtual world in which it thinks it owns the "machine" while running Linux on the real box.

The thought of MS Windows being confined to an environment that can undo all changes during a Windows "session" seems very satisfying to me.

I already do this with my 6 year old's games (running Win98SE in VMware). Such an arrangement suits MS's "OS maturity model" quite well, don't you think?

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Stéphane:

There is actually a design problem with the current habit of installing LILO or GRUB on the MBR : each new OS (which has a hard constraint : ensure it will boot) has to know about GRUB and a lot about other OSes to maintain the list (e.g. ability to read ext2). This is not scalable. No wonder that Windows chooses the simplest path : overwrite the MBR.

There is a better solution explained on
http://snipurl.com/vlvr
With the solution explained under the link above, there is no need for any OS to try to probe other OSes. Even better : no update of the MBR-installed bootloader is ever needed, whatever the number of installed OSes. Follow the link for details.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin:

I've always installed Windows first because it hoses the MBR. I guess I won't be changing even if I do go to Vista (which I can't see happening in a hurry, unless I buy a new laptop or something).

I've always installed Windows, then other OSes, then XOSL as my boot manager.

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

silencer:

cheers!!

you all have it right now! :D
by the way, great article Declan! it's a pretty good info i didn't know about :)

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Ethana2:

Man, I've been there. Except my GRUB got jacked by a simple Windows update. I think that was after I forced Windows onto a different HDD, larger partition though.

("Backup" Windows partition, "Restore" to new partition... Heehee...)

Oh, and if I was looking for the "best" distro, we'd be talking Ubuntu or SuSE, right? I got started on Fedora Core 4...

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Ngarkat:

I agree that the use of a generic boot manager should always be in ones kit of utilities.

For many years I've used "BootIt" from http://www.terabyteunlimited.com. It's one of the few Shareware programs I have found useful and mature enough to actually purchase. I do not mind paying for quality, supported software.

I've just installed Vista build 5536. Yep it's trodden on the MBR (yes an oddity for this day and age for sure but Bill will not change his mind that;s for sure) but it just takes a simple boot with the BootIt CD and do a restore of it's MBR and wella I'm in again to all my OS's including Vista.

Painless :)

29 February 2008, 8:28 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

pSynrg:

OK, I'm not gonna stick my head in the sand and pretend that the MBR issue isn't annoying - hell, it even screwed up a couple of XP installations.

But what you HAVE to accept here is the very VERY small percentage of users that have any concern for dual boot systems or interoperability with other minor OS's (that only your average geek can get anything out of.)

Let's face it - the 'which OS to boot' situation should have nothing whatsover to do with the actual OS be it Vista, XP, Linux or whatever.

This should be a function of the power-up mechanisms - be they BIOS or EFI driven. Not subject to software manipulation but part of a user defined BIOS/EFI setup procedure. The MBR should be unreachable to an OS...

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Jack:

"They don’t have to recognise that it’s Debian or Slackware or Fedora or Gentoo, as far as most bootloaders are concerned you can call it “Krusty the Klown’s Operating System Kapers!” in the boot menu and it doesn’t make a difference. "

I laughed my gluteus maximus off at this. So true, all it really needs is the partition and hard drive.

"Why isn’t this an anti-trust violation?"
I don't see how anyone couldn't agree with this pondering thought. Microsoft obviously hasn't learned it's lesson.

They need an option for skipping borking up the MBR. Seriously, there is no reason to be over-writing the MBR. The only reason I dual-boot is to use certain programs. And how many times have I re-installed Windows in a year? Lost count at 5. Why? Because Windows just so happened to find it funny or whatnot to make the operating system unusable speed-wise. Wtfbbq? How many times have I re-installed Linux? None. The only problem I had was due to me having a fat finger in the terminal, but was easily solved by reversing the damage.

Sure, you might be able to just edit boot.ini to recognize the other hard drive you installed Linux on, then add the hard drive and partition, then have grub installed on the MBR again, but how many hoops must people who don't want to be Windows-dependent take to keep something on THEIR OWN computer -- I didn't blow a grand for a computer just to say I have one, I use it how I like it.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Azizi Khan:

"Take note, Redmond; the goodwill is gone. People use your software because they have to"

Please dont generalize... a lot of us are perfectly happy purchasing software, thank you very much.

"If Dar/wine were mature enough to allow OS X and Linux users to run absolutely any Win32 application, Microsoft would be finished. Kaput."

ROTFLMAO!!! Dont take my word for it - but please, please dont hold your breath...

Unix & Windows User.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Declan Kennedy:

"But what you HAVE to accept here is the very VERY small percentage of users that have any concern for dual boot systems or interoperability with other minor OS’s (that only your average geek can get anything out of.)"

Well, I would argue that I don't HAVE to accept anything really - opinion journalism is like that. In fact, by disagreeing with you, I am in fact giving your opinion considerable currency.

Deep stuff eh? Think about it.

While you're thinking about it, consider the case of Apple who seem to think that dual-booting is a pretty big deal. Would you characterise OS X as an OS for geeks with little to offer anyone else?

"Let’s face it - the ‘which OS to boot’ situation should have nothing whatsover to do with the actual OS be it Vista, XP, Linux or whatever.

This should be a function of the power-up mechanisms - be they BIOS or EFI driven. Not subject to software manipulation but part of a user defined BIOS/EFI setup procedure. The MBR should be unreachable to an OS…"

So then... you agree with me?

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Declan Kennedy:

"Please dont generalize… a lot of us are perfectly happy purchasing software, thank you very much."

Hmm... so only you can generalise then? "A lot of us"? I think you meant "I".

Besides - that quote, in context, has nothing to do with paying for software versus getting it for free. As such, I'm a little confused by your comment. Thanks for taking the time out to leave it though.

"ROTFLMAO!!! Dont take my word for it - but please, please dont hold your breath…"

Well, in the face of such a persuasive argument I find myself hornswoggled. I hereby decree that Linux is dead, Microsoft has won the war and we'd all better BOGU for Vista.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Nate0:

Pft. When XP was released a bandwagon of tragic nerds got up and made a huge noise about it, now, a few years later everyone who isn't a Luser is running it without any memory of how "drastic" it was supposed to be. In a couple of years time Vista will be exactly the same. Commercial, residential etc etc. Why do you people come out every time they release a new OS and 'bash' it?

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Norm e:

As I read various articles and see people post how Macs and OSX is just a joke, a game, and how you need windows to really have a computer, and then I read the above.

Thanks.

Windows is doing everything it can to kill itself. Its diehard lovers keep trying to love it but I read the above and all I see is Microsoft trying to dominate the world with stupid crap. If they make it bad enough you will have to use their stuff only and live with it, or be a computer geek and program your own stuff, or give up.

Apple. Run windows, run Linux, heck even Vista from what I hear, but always able to run Mac OS and always easier and more fun. : -)

Thanks again.
Norm

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Nate0:

Please.

What are the alternatives? Microsoftintosh Mac users might argue their system looks better and its easier to use etc etc etc. If its so great, why are its software libraries so small? why is it favoured by a collective of people in specific industries? The reason is because Apple never appealed to "Joe Dirt". The great unclean MAD market never brought Macintosh because Apple was too proud to whore out to the lowest common demoninators like non proprietory hardware. And now where are they? kept afloat by MS and now powered by Intel because their myopic strategy to force people to buy systems if they wanted Mac didn't work out for them.

Then there's Linux. an "industry" that can't get itself organised at all. Open source is great if you want a free webserver or you want to turn an old Digital D100 into a state inspection firewall, but when it comes to getting organised? not going to happen. The linux bandwagon keeps promising that were going to see Linux on the desktop, linux in the office... You need money (amongst a huge number of other things linux distro's don't have) to make that happen. The arguement between who's better is stupid, MS is the boss, you don't like it thats your problem, its all politics - in an election you don't always get the person you vote for, what do you do then? You put up.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

joe:

hi fellas,lets keep it in english for goodnes sake its house of penguins,i think microsoft is falling onto its own sword,no let me rephrase,microsoft is definatly falling on its own sword,gee i might lose sleep tonight worrying about that.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Fduch:

Triing to beat up eternal dumbness:

1) When inexperienced user installs Windows he should get his Windows no matter what.
2) When inexperienced user installs Linux (or makes dual-boot) it's his own problem. If you are dumb your safe choices are limited.
3) When experienced user makes dual-boot he knows about command-line switches to stop Windows from overwriting MBR. Or knows how to restore MBR. Or knows how to include Windows to Linux boot loader. Or knows how to include Linux to Windows boot loader.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Reb:

so far i have seen a few posts knocking microshaft
and a few trying desperately to answer back.

but, my own personal opinion is this....

as long as microshaft keeps tying and locking people into their way of doing things, they will eventually run out of people willing to keep paying out for their o/s.

it is totally unfair for microshaft to say that,
if i change my motherboard (upgrade) i then have a new machine and must therefore pay out for another copy of their o/s !!!
this is surely bordering on illegal?

read the microshaft end User Licence Agreement (the "eula"), oh yeah silly me, nobody ever reads that right!

i refused to go to windows xp, and i shall refuse to go to vista.
the only way to hit microshaft is with my withholding my money from their greedy pockets.

when everyone wakes up from the microshaft coma, and smells the coffee, and then stops paying for what is ultimately a third rate o/s, then things will change (and believe me people are waking up).
(the software applications available for windows is emmense and are great apps but the actual o/s is rubbish for example the first generation of xp was still optimised for I386 processors !!!

linux is available in i586 now! and as for 64bit tech, well linux was first there too!

for gawd sake people wake up, and vote with your money ie: stop giving it to microshaft!

i run mandriva 2006 free download version available here http://www.mandriva.com/en/download/free

not that hard to find is it, just go to mandriva.com and type "free download" in the search duh!

i have used linux since mandrake 7.2 / suse 6.1
and how anyone can say it is non productive, is just pure madness!

i have a full and free office suite (open office) which btw does something microsoft office has trouble doing (reading older microsoft office formats!!!).

some older type but very engaging games, quake 11 runs superbly (better than on windows actually), all my multimedia files run flawlessly through xine, internet and email are superb, completely virus free for three years now, and no spyware either!!
pop ups are a thing of the past too!

quit microshaft and start using your £1000 computer free of all the resource hogging bloat you needed when running microshaft's bug platform!!

have fun
regards
Reb

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

XPE 1.5:

"it is totally unfair for microshaft to say that, if i change my motherboard (upgrade) i then have a new machine and must therefore pay out for another copy of their o/s !!! this is surely bordering on illegal?"

First, I am not defending MS on their decisions,, I am only explaining what you fail to understand.

This is only the case if you have purchased an OEM licensed Windows (if it came with your pc that you purchased from Dell, HP, Sony, etc.) or you bought an OEM copy as a system builder. OEM copies can not be transfered to new systems. The reason is, you pay a lot less for that copy. You are not paying full retail price. Therefore, you must purchase a new copy to go with your new mobo. If you are only replacing the same mobo, because it went bad, no problem, reactivate without buying a new copy.

It is absolutely NOT TRUE if you purchase a RETAIL license. You may have to call MS to reactivate (something I am not happy about either) but, you do not have to buy another copy of windows. You can move that copy around to as many machines as you want, as long as you have uninstalled it off the previous ones.

So please, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST.

29 February 2008, 8:33 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Nate0:

What a redundant post. How much Internet bandwidth do you waste on a daily basis with posts like that on other sites?

Quake '11'? you mean Quake 2? yeah, I remember that, years ago. Cool. Is that the best game on Linux?

Some other things I'd like to point out about your post:

"it is totally unfair for microshaft to say that,
if i change my motherboard (upgrade) i then have a new machine and must therefore pay out for another copy of their o/s !!!
this is surely bordering on illegal?"

Wrong. Have YOU ever read the EULA? If you upgrade hardware, you might have to make a five minute phonecall. Thats all.

"i have a full and free office suite "

Also available on Windows - for free, and guess what, no one uses it because its trite crap.

Spend huge money on hardware and capabilities and then put a free OS on it and see how useful it really isn't, because there's nothing but quake '11' and a useless free Office suite.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Matthew Heyn:

Deren or Derek, whatever.. I am not going to scroll for your name.

You get paid to write articles about how Microsoft writes a new MBR? When did this become news? 1998?

I am both RH Certified, and of course blessed with multiple certs from Redmond.

Unix has it's place in this world. It is on my desktop (as the sole OS - as it deserves to be) and I also have a win machines and a bebox (do you know what that is even? Don't google it you cheater.)

I sure can't dual boot windows with OSX now can I? The fact you even mentioned a company with proprietary hardware boggles me. So what if they got smart and learned to make money off the hard free work of my peers. Good for them. I hope Jobs gets shot in the head on his way to work.

But seriously. You get paid for this? I am in the wrong line of work, I suppose if I get a thesaurus and throw some elegant wording into some meaningless drivel about Microsoft business tactics.. I could get a "journalism" job.

I suppose I just contributed to your pay by looking at that banner at this site.

I could sum this post up in 8 words "You don't have anything better to write about?" Your article could of been summed the same: "Microsoft still fudging up consumers master boot records."

I do agree with someone though. The user who uses bootman. Bootman is by far the easiest bootloader I have ever had the pleasure to use.

Mateusz

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Declan Kennedy:

Deren or Derek, whatever.. I am not going to scroll for your name. It's Declan. Nice to meet you buddy! I'm well. How are you? You get paid to write articles about how Microsoft writes a new MBR? When did this become news? 1998? Sure do! And my yacht payments are going very well thankyou. Unix has it’s place in this world. It is on my desktop (as the sole OS - as it deserves to be) and I also have a win machines and a bebox (do you know what that is even? Don’t google it you cheater.) ZOMG! You are teh uberness... you use a more obscure OS than me! Must be nice to feel so insecure. Although I might point out that BeOS variants are a little passe in these days of Amiga One machines. Welcome to real obscurity. I sure can’t dual boot windows with OSX now can I? The fact you even mentioned a company with proprietary hardware boggles me. So what if they got smart and learned to make money off the hard free work of my peers. Good for them. I hope Jobs gets shot in the head on his way to work. You seem very emotional about this. But seriously. You get paid for this? I am in the wrong line of work, I suppose if I get a thesaurus and throw some elegant wording into some meaningless drivel about Microsoft business tactics.. I could get a “journalism” job. Good luck with that! We can have a blog-off! Very Web 2.0. I suppose I just contributed to your pay by looking at that banner at this site. Not just that, but God even killed a kitten. I could sum this post up in 8 words “You don’t have anything better to write about?” Your article could of been summed the same: “Microsoft still fudging up consumers master boot records.” And yet here we are, still being superfluously verbose. I think my work here is done. After all, it's not like you're the one getting paid to write drivel; you seem to produce it under your own steam.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Kelly:

Windows installers aren't the only ones that think they "own" the master boot record. Ubuntu Linux doesn't give you any options either ... it merrily installs GRUB on the MBR without asking your permission.

29 February 2008, 8:29 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Anonymous1:

Lifted from another source...

During installation, Ubuntu automatically installs GRUB (Grand Unified Boot Loader) to the Master Boot Record (MBR) of your hard drive. Handily enough, it also detects any other operating systems such as Windows and adds entries in GRUB as appropriate. If you have a specific requirement not to install GRUB to the MBR, you need to install using the Alternate disc, which will allow you to specify the install location for GRUB.


29 February 2008, 8:36 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Foul Mouthed Mofo:

I installed Ubuntu on a separate drive and it messed up Vista MBR, not UBUNTU did it and I'm pissed. It also gave the expected noapic errors.

My new interpretation of Ubuntu if you can load live cd w/o erros toss the cd in the circular file and get on with your life. Yes you can make it work but why? For under developed free ware? To look cool with the nerds? To waste a Saturday?

I now use ruby for windows and will never let Ubuntu near a Vista MBR again...................

29 February 2008, 8:36 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

raindog:

It is for a similar reason we discourage chimps from owning machine guns, you said the magic word "install" and without knowledge or a configured boot manager what did you think was going to happen?


29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

the penguin:

Since the emergence of Vista ( read domination) pc sales have NOT reached expected levels. Microsoft also apparrently have some kind of unix extension, which they are probably going to use to try and stiffle the open source community, remember that in the states, ( and probable elsewhere) dollars make for rights of claim, not prima face proof of claim of right., this is why Microsoft have been largely successfull in its law suits, any "failures" are carefully calculated choriography designed to give the illusion of transparrency. Microsoft, for example, are encouraging its partners to buy patents for ideas not fully tested prototypes, and their legal team will no doubt offer free legal advice on hoe to skirt around the difficulties inherent in patent law. the main one being that patents are supposed to be for working models, that are unique , and have progressed beyond the idea stage,( this definition is simplistic, but it is a valid point. yes, i know i went off topic but it is strangely relaveat.

29 February 2008, 8:39 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mike:

"Just having them there for people to look at and play with is the best advertisement for Linux I have found, because, in terms of performance and usability, they make Windows Vista look positively medieval."

Ok, it's obvious that you hate Windows Vista, but I wouldn't go so far as to say what you said above. Linux machines are wonderful, indeed, and I love Ubuntu and Fedora. However, we have to face the facts that Windows is never going away because the hardware companies are making their products for Windows and usually for Windows only. Take my Wireless USB Adapter for instance, which is made by Linksys. Now, unfortunately, Linksys does not make any products (that I've noticed) that are compatable with Ubuntu and Fedora. I tried Ubuntu, Fedora Core 6, Fedora 7, and Solaris and none of those OS's could even detect or use my Wireless USB Adapter, even with ndiswrapper. The only Linux system I have found that even came close to using it correctly (it used it correctly, but I had to reinstall it everytime I rebooted the machine) was PCLinuxOS.

Also, consider the fact that there is a large gaming community out there and a huge percentage of games that do not work on Linux machines. I can gurantee you that any Blizzard game you find will not run on a Linux machine, and the performance of those games using Wine is mediocre at best.

My take on this is:

If you're looking for an excellent OS that you can dual boot easily with, comes with a ton of free programming/productivity/music/video software, and one that is completely secure, stable, and will never ever let you down...then pick a Linux OS.

If you're looking for an OS that you don't mind running a ton of anti-virus/anti-spyware software on, one that you can enjoy the pleasures of about 90% of the worlds software including games and those awesome .NET languages, and if you don't mind constantly reinstalling your OS because some nasty virus or piece of spyware came in and wasted your OS, then pick Windows.



29 February 2008, 8:31 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Woody669:

I too am embarrased to find that I read to the bottom of the page, but for somewhat different reasons....It is a shame that some of the most intelligent people in the world, those of us that are Computer-Literate, work in the field with crossover experience(I too am RH, Unix, and MS Multi-Certified);Have ego and insecurity issues. Declan, you especially! Most of the time spent here was done attacking others opinions or on your part Declan Literally making fun of someone who wished Steve Jobs ill. I'm willing to bet good money that the majority of you never had the joy of using Windows 3.1 after being only Dos Supported for many years. Or here's something for you to think about.....Radio Shack was the major retailer of most hardware. ie. My old Tandy XL 1000. Not IBM, then came along the Commodore 64. To find that Microsoft, not Unix, BeOs, Linux, Apple, HP, Compaq, Dell, Gateway or even the stand alone system builder has had more to do with putting a PC or Mac in your hands so that you can sit here and bash Bill & Co. into the ground, must put you all into a coma. Yes, it was Bill Gates and Steve Jobs together that has changed the history of the human race by making an operating system that you could use at home as well as work. It was also this same software that started the hardware evolution so that units became smaller, more compact, and more powerful.Even Apple's AirBook which is currently the smallest, lightest notebook of today is a direct descendant of Windows 3.1. Every operating system that is currently available is all working towards one common goal; the implementation of "The Dick Tracy Wristwatch Communicator". It is everyone's wish that someday you will be able to speak into your device on your wrist and get ANYTHING done that you expect of your computer today. The reason MS is the giant it is today, is quite simple; IT DID IT FIRST! And yes, while I too have issues with the way The OS does things that are not my liking, it is such a big step from having to use 6 5.25 floppy disks to play "Pole Position" I also had to give a lil chuckle about the Security issues of windows. The reason that Apple doesn't have the Virus population that windows does is because how many snotty lil 14 yr old geniuses have them? Viruses are not "Born", They're made! They are made by people who have some urge in them to destroy the property and lives of others, but who are too cowardly, or too small and weak to do it physically. I haven't had a virus in years. Why you ask? Because I don't use any form of downloadable email, I don't go to Porn Or Warez or "crack" sites. Because I don't try to get Something for Nothing. Now I find Vista to not be the choice of operating systems currently available, but like it or not, just like the Flop MS Called ME, it has a place and a purpose. How many linux/unix based systems have come and gone that have been utter junk too? And not to sound too overly pro-MS(I'm not,I'm pro 'puter)What is the overly purpose of EVERY OPERATING SYSTEM out there? TO BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS IN POPULARITY AND EASE OF USE WITH APPEAL TO THE MASSES! And until the day that someone else mentioned before me, Linux, Unix,Ubuntu, Redhat, Slackware etc. can combine forces with one major goal to make a better working mouse trap, Microsoft will be King and God to the computer illiterate and literate alike. And all will pay homage in dollars to their God like it or not, as long as they can play Bioshock @ 30+ FPS, burn copys of their music cds, Movie dvds, print and store their lives on photos,communicate with friends and family,keep track of stock in the warehouses,do they're accounts receivable and payables etc. under one Software Name that is guaranteed to be interoperable within itself. Would I like it to be MS? No not really! I would actually prefer it to be me, so I can get rich like Bill and Steve did, But truthfully, I don't care who it is! I just want it to work, effortlessly, and seamlessly FOREVER.I want my Dick Tracy Wristwatch Communicator! and I want what I want and I want it NOW!

29 February 2008, 8:47 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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