Why Malcolm Turnbull wants you to drive on potholes

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Dan Warne09 April 2009, 3:52 PM

Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull today slammed the Rudd Government's $43 billion national road network.


The plan was announced by Kevin Rudd on Tuesday, after bids by state RTAs and toll road operators failed to adequately address congestion and road gridlock nationwide.

"No one else in the world has adopted this approach of a majority Government owned common carrier providing roads where the taxpayers carry the financial and construction risk," he said, seemingly glossing over the vast majority of roads which are, in fact, government owned.

"The key questions are: how much will it cost for families to drive around? When will the roads be ready? Will there be enough demand? How will email, post and phone calls affect the viability of the roads?

Turnbull cited statistics showing phone call volumes in Australia were increasing at a rapid rate, reducing demand for a national road network. "Over the last six months, 108 million bus, train and ferry tickets were purchased, but a massive 650 million phone calls were made," Turnbull said.

"The Government has not provided any evidence of the economic viability of this project. No evidence has been provided that there will be sufficient demand for this service at prices that will deliver a commercial return.

"This is a case of “build it and (hope) they will come," Turnbull concluded.

Does that sound nutty to you? It's a version of a press release issued by Malcolm Turnbull debunking the Government's fibre broadband plan, substituting discussion of broadband for discussion of roads. It might be a bad example given we should probably be looking to reduce road use for environmental reasons -- but ignore that for a second, and just think about how congested many of Australia's major arterial roads are.

Turnbull seems to be hung up on ensuring Telstra-like profits for the national broadband network -- even though no sane politican would demand the same from the public for a national road network.

It's time to view broadband as a national infrastructure project; hang the expense.

Last year, we saw petrol prices rise to nearly $2 a litre, which had the knock-on effect of pushing commuters out of cars and into public transport, with buses and trams full to capacity, often bypassing commuters waiting at stops. Many people have started thinking about the benefits of working from home, or getting a job closer to home, rather than doing a daily commute into the CBD.

In the future, with petrol reserves running out, and, ironically, road and public transport networks stretched to breaking point, employers are going to have to look at decentralising their workforce and placing employees around Australia where it makes economic sense for the employer -- and the employees.

A fast, reliable, ubiquitous national broadband network is the basic building block to achieving a work force that can work remotely. Sure, employers can get a high speed network connection to just about anywhere -- but the vast cost of dedicated corporate network connections with enough capacity to enable things like office-to-office video chat for every coworker makes it unviable. Most companies can only afford to offer limited internet access and access to corporate applications via their corporate networks.

If there's a 100Mbit/s network port into every home and business (delivering a true 100Mbit/s, not the false promise of 24Mbit/s from ADSL2+), it doesn't take much imagination to see that remote working will be very viable. It's more than enough bandwidth to handle video chat, and the soaring popularity of Skype video chat shows that the public is ready to accept this an alternative to meetings in many circumstances.

Such a fast national network, with a superfast fibre backbone to interchange data between users will also allow a revolution in medical care -- rural hospitals, which currently pay thousands to fly specialists from capital cities or even overseas one day a week to see patients -- will be able to mitigate much of those outlandish costs through high definition video conferencing.

But according to Malcolm Turnbull, Australia should only have a mish-mash of broadband options, with unpredictable coverage and limited speeds -- because that’s all people can afford to pay for while still generating profits for telcos.

Effectively, Turnbull is saying that unless you're prepared to have your street paved, you should put up with potholes -- which is fine for him and his mates, since fhe could afford to have his road lined with Italian slate tiles. But the rest of us quite rightly expect our tax dollars to go towards well maintained, sealed public roads, with a traffic system that allows traffic to flow smoothly as often as possible. Just as we should be able to expect the Government to build national broadband infrastructure.


P.S. For those who can't be bothered reading the whole article -- Malcolm Turnbull didn't actually say anything about roads. He did, however, say much the same things about the Government's broadband plan. In other words, it's satire/opinion.


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Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

"The Government has not provided any evidence of the economic viability of this project. No evidence has been provided that there will be sufficient demand for this service at prices that will deliver a commercial return."

This statement is spot on. There is no questioning we need massive improvement in infrastructure, but that infrastructure need to be affordable and accessible. Where are the costings? $5.6bn, $43bn, $50bn these figures may as well have been plucked from some orifice. Where is the detail for all these grand visions?

It's time to view broadband as a national infrastructure project; hang the expense.
Now with all due respect Dan that is a pretty dumb comment, hang what expense? We don't really know what the expense will be. That is what I have issue with. The figures quoted this far could barely be considered any more accurate than a wild guess. What is affordable? Affordable in the Rudd/Turnbull household may not equate to affordable in the Warne/Raindog households or workplaces. And how can anyone make assurances of affordable when they don't know what the costs will be?

If we poorly manage the construction of a badly run and designed network at huge cost to the taxpayer offering a service at pricing that isn't realistic, we are worse of than if we'd done nothing at all. And no I am far from suggesting we do nothing at all.

Already we Optus and others suggesting sale of existing resources that may or may not be duplicated. It's madness that such issues are not already built into any forward plan.

There is no resolution on where fibre ends and alternative technologies begin. We still have lunatics suggesting FTTH equates to a cable to every structure in the land.

But according to Malcolm Turnbull, Australia should only have a mish-mash of broadband options, with unpredictable coverage and limited speeds"

That's not what Turnbull is suggesting at all. At what is the issue what delivery medium is used. I don't think the consumer cares if he gets his service via green garden hose as long as he has, choice of provider, and affordable access to sufficient volume and bandwidth of data.

Such a fast national network, with a superfast fibre backbone to interchange data between users will also allow a revolution in medical care

The bottleneck in this country has not been the backbone, it been access to commercial and retail consumers. All that we have thus far is what telstra has drip fed and what other providers have build in a work around manner.

Government does not do any kind of business well or efficiently. Government should be taking the role of regulator and facilitator. If successive governments have not managed to do this and have managed to run all their other enterprise efforts poorly what is to suggest a NBN will be any different?

It's 1973 all over again! The vision at that time was a revolution in the delivery of health services. Look how Australia rates at that in 2009. The privately funded health insurance industry never recovered and the rest remains a shameful shambles.

Where is the evidence to suggest Kev & Steve's Bogus Network Adventure wont end in a similar shambles? History is certainly on the side of prediction.

09 April 2009, 4:47 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

agami (User):

I agree with most of the points you've raised Dan.

Just because their title is "The Opposition" doesn't mean they should be opposed to everything. These kinds of efforts should inspire bi-partisanship.

Raindog is constantly harping on about the costing, well we're not building it yet, we'll get to the costing in due course.

Have a happy easter and a pleasant long weekend everyone.

09 April 2009, 5:36 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting agami:
Raindog is constantly harping on about the costing, well we're not building it yet, we'll get to the costing in due course.

Yes that was they way they built the Opera House. We cannot afford a similar approach to such essential national infrastructure. Costing and project planning are crucial, and a hell of a lot more of that should have been done before any grandiose promises were made.


Quoting agami:
Have a happy Easter and a pleasant long weekend everyone.

And to you. A safe and pleasant Easter to all!


09 April 2009, 5:56 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Quoting Raindog:
Yes that was they way they built the Opera House.

Federation Square anyone?

10 April 2009, 10:37 AM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Goresh (New user):

"Yes that was they way they built the Opera House."

I guess the point is that there IS an opera house.

After a decade of Malcolm Turnbull's mob running things, there wasn't even a suggestion of a need for broadband.
Telecommunications was simply a cashcow to be squeezed for every possible cent from spectrum auctions to Telstra sales.

10 April 2009, 8:12 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Goresh:
After a decade of Malcolm Turnbull's mob running things, there wasn't even a suggestion of a need for broadband.

That was why there was contracts in place to get broadband to rural and neglected areas was it? Contracts that Senator Steve reneged on. Those same user will be waiting another five years at the very minimum now. Oh and as much as I am not a fan of Turnbull you can hardly criticise him for actions of a previous government.


10 April 2009, 10:30 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Goresh (New user):

"Yes that was they way they built the Opera House."

I guess the point is that there IS an opera house.

After a decade of Malcolm Turnbull's mob running things, there wasn't even a suggestion of a need for broadband.
Telecommunications was simply a cashcow to be squeezed for every possible cent from spectrum auctions to Telstra sales.

10 April 2009, 8:15 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Goresh:
I guess the point is that there IS an opera house.

No the point is very much directed towards the way the Opera House project was managed. The massive cost over-runs, cost we are still paying for decades later. There is no doubting a landmark building eventually emerged and there is no doubt we are still paying for the vision over economics way it was constructed. Apply the same cost over-runs to a project guessed to cost $50Bn and you get an idea of the risk we are all being exposed to.


10 April 2009, 10:37 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Pauly (Regular user):

Quoting Raindog:
No the point is very much directed towards the way the Opera House project was managed. The massive cost over-runs, cost we are still paying for decades later. There is no doubting a landmark building eventually emerged and there is no doubt we are still paying for the vision over economics way it was constructed. Apply the same cost over-runs to a project guessed to cost $50Bn and you get an idea of the risk we are all being exposed to.

And how many billions of dollars has Australia gained in tourism dollars from this landmark? If it wasnt so extravagently designed meaning that costs were far more than originally expected, then we would have a normal looking opera house that noone wanted to see. The opera house has easily paid for itself, with businesses being able to work from Australia with this new network rather than moving overseas to use their high speed network, wont that also increase revenue into the billions? the government can subsidise the price to households and charge extra to businesses. However any prices the government could give out now would be wholesale anyway which means nothing to end users



11 April 2009, 1:26 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Pauly:
And how many billions of dollars has Australia gained in tourism dollars from this landmark?

Your telling the story, how much? And how much for who? From a Taxpayer point of view its something we are shelling out for perpetually. Still why should I complain when purveyors of Chinese souvenirs are making a buck out of it.


Quoting Pauly:
The opera house has easily paid for itself

So why is the taxpayer still shelling out for its operation?


Quoting Pauly:
with businesses being able to work from Australia with this new network rather than moving overseas to use their high speed network

And of course you have numbers on all these businesses that have moved overseas just for the better broadband?


Quoting Pauly:
wont that also increase revenue into the billions?

Wont what increase revenue? Whose revenue? Aren't we pumping $50Bn into this? How can you assume business advantage when no one can quantify even an approximate price of service?


Quoting Pauly:
the government can subsidise the price to households and charge extra to businesses.

Now there is an idea! After all every home user knows all businesses sit on pots of cash that they can willingly spend to subsidise faster YouTube to teenager's bedrooms. Nation building stuff this, isn't it. Now what were you saying about the advantages to business again?


Quoting Pauly:
However any prices the government could give out now would be wholesale anyway which means nothing to end users

Well actually a accurate estimate on wholesale pricing including a specification of what that wholesale price entails, would give a good estimate of retail pricing. Of course such detail isn't available, given the last $45Bn of commitment was drawn up on table napkins during a few interstate flights. Yes that the importance really given to getting a $50Bn package right.


12 April 2009, 2:10 AM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting agami:
well we're not building it yet


We sure aren't! And that this rate, we bloody never will!
If Loony Conroy hadn't insisted on killing OPEL, many country towns would now have ADSL2 from non-Telstra exchanges at sane prices. Now instead, they get to wait another 8 years for fibre. Brilliant!

09 April 2009, 8:53 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Goresh (New user):

Quoting Tin:
If Loony Conroy hadn't insisted on killing OPEL, many country towns would now have ADSL2 from non-Telstra exchanges at sane prices. Now instead, they get to wait another 8 years for fibre.


Now that IS a joke. Nine months after having been awarded the contract, Opel had not turned a single sod of ground for these mythical non-Telstra exchanges, nor placed an order for a single item of equipment.

If the truth be known, they were thankful that the government had let them off the hook since Telstra had already built and were already testing over 8000 NextG base stations capable of far better than ADSL data rates and their entire business model had evaporated.

Instead they demanded access to the new network at subsidised rates.
Unfortunately for them, the ACCC had one of it's more rational moments and told them to take a running jump.
Being denied subsidised access to Telestra infrastructure, lo and behold, for the first time in a decade, they started building their own.







10 April 2009, 8:42 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aubrey (Advanced member):

While I certainly agree that costings etc need to be done, much of the negative analysis and harping on about a "business case" in fact ignores that the nation as whole will benefit in so many ways from a grown-up broadband network. I know "nation building" sounds a bit old hat, but projects like this one are certainly "economy changing". It is the overall expansion of economic activity (including a lowering of costs for emerging businesses) that takes a project outside of normal business analysis. None I have seen have factored in these "externalities" and are simply doing sums based on costs and price in today's economy. Asking private sector analysts to evaluate a government project is just stupid - all they see is inputs and outputs, cost over-runs etc.

The end product will be subsidised by the government for a very good reason - the "business case" for increased use of broadband relates directly to tax revenue from increased business activity (especially GST), not just "return on investment".

Now not every "nation building" project undertaken by Australian governments has been successful (I don't think the Ord River Scheme has ever broken even for the taxpayer) and many don't come in on budget (usually for quite valid reasons). But many have paid for themselves many, many times over.

And to those who say "we don't need it - 1.5Mbit/s per second is enough for me", I don't know what to say.

I also think its really funny that serious analysts are floating price figures ($150, $200 month etc) when the current range of broadband prices is so darn wide.



09 April 2009, 7:21 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Aubrey:
Asking private sector analysts to evaluate a government project is just stupid - all they see is inputs and outputs, cost over-runs etc.The end product will be subsidised by the government for a very good reason - the "business case" for increased use of broadband relates directly to tax revenue from increased business activity

I see what you are getting at but for increased business activity to occur it has to work, it has to be cost effective and without restrictions.
Sure there are those who would choose to apply a strict business analysis and look for the associated 12 month ROI, and that is plain stupid. But I don't think much of the analysis you condemn has been done on that basis. The truth is there isn't much to analyse. The commitments are there the substance and planning necessary is not.


Quoting Aubrey:
And to those who say "we don't need it - 1.5Mbit/s per second is enough for me", I don't know what to say.

Well that depends entirely where you are positioned. Sure any mug who would accept 1.5Mb as the all that is required is a fool. And yet we still have large chunks of the population that dream of having that kind of connection. (Many of those in in Metro suburbs before we get bogged into any City/Country debate)
We are getting estimates dates out to 2022 already, and no prizes for guessing which parts of the population will be waiting till then for their broadband. So maybe a few of those interim technologies may not have been such a bad idea.

Quoting Aubrey:
I also think its really funny that serious analysts are floating price figures ($150, $200 month etc) when the current range of broadband prices is so darn wide.

I think it's funny anyone is foolish enough to quote any sort of figures given there is not a thing to base it on. Kev and Steve don't know. So at best any analysis is a guess based on the guesses of guessers. And given $5bn can turn to $50bn overnight in costing, yeah your right the end user price per month could be $50 or $500. And it's price is for what other than something approximating 100Mb/sec.
Pin the tail on the Broadband Plan anyone?


09 April 2009, 7:57 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

McBanjo (User):

It's Turnbull's job to criticise the government, whatever stage they may be in the costing process. I haven't heard him say anything about how bad the idea is, he's simply saying the government hasn't done their homework. Risk and commercial viability have not yet been mentioned. With 49% of funding from the private sector, we expect profits at a Telstra level, else people will just invest their money in Telstra. The network simply has to be commercially viable for it to be built. I've never heard of public roads being part of a corporation, so unless the government wants to spend the whole sum of $43 billion of future taxpayers' money, they've got to get it right.

09 April 2009, 7:39 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Halcon (Advanced member):

This situation is an smoke screen from the government.
It want to build the infrastructure and control everyone.
The cost of 43 billion dollars is assumed, this may spiral more than this amount to build a decent fast broadband service.
This labour government is a disgrace!
Don't expect anything from these bunch of clowns, they run their own show in digital TV, I am fed up with their blatant hypocrisy.

09 April 2009, 8:25 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Pauly (Regular user):

If the govt had just said "we cannot provide a cost for delivering this service until the feasibility study is completed in 9 months" instead of approximating the 43 odd billion, would that make the doubters quieten down or yell louder?


09 April 2009, 10:12 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Pauly:
If the govt had just said "we cannot provide a cost for delivering this service until the feasibility study is completed in 9 months" instead of approximating the 43 odd billion, would that make the doubters quieten down or yell louder?

The Government was elected to act professionally and responsibly, nothing less will be acceptable, regardless of what team they are batting for.
There is no need for feasibility studies, what is needed is some actual planning and costing.



09 April 2009, 11:10 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

TV Bis (User):

yawn yawn yawn - wake me up when it's done...................

10 April 2009, 7:42 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Goresh (New user):

It is Sydney Cove, January 26 1788,
The first fleet has just arrived and the Governor has ordered a business case be prepared for the building of docks, town hall, main street at the settlement.

Unfortunately, the analysis shows that over the prior 30,000 years there was in fact no boat traffic into Sydney Cove, building of any infrastructure cannot be justified and the colony is abandonded.

10 April 2009, 8:24 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Goresh:
It is Sydney Cove, January 26 1788

No lets try a more recent example it is early in the 1970s and a visionary leader had grand but un-costed plans to put Australian health-care ahead of the game. What was the outcome on that one?




10 April 2009, 10:40 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Aubrey (Advanced member):

Um...we have a health care system that is ahead of 90% of other countries?

Yes, it isn't perfect - but I'm so glad I don't live in an (unnamed) country that relies on the private sector to provide its basic health infrastructure and cover. Sometime we have to accept that our system of government delivers "least worst" outcomes.

OK, the vision thing isn't always successful, but that same government that said the private sector should provide basic health care also sent the first satellites into space and created a whole new industry based on it. Its publicly funded research and launch facilities are now a source of wealth for millions of people that probably would have argued about the waste of taxpayers' dollars and that they didn't need satellite communications.

10 April 2009, 11:11 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Aubrey:
Um...we have a health care system that is ahead of 90% of other countries?

Yes many 3rd world countries would be jealous. The point is we had a health care system ahead of those 90% before, now we have one in perpetual financial crisis. All the grand and unplanned vision succeeded in doing was to blow out costs indefinitely.


Quoting Aubrey:
Sometime we have to accept that our system of government delivers "least worst" outcomes.

I'd delivery by our governments is consistently worst case. Name one enterprise that government takeover ever made more efficient in our wide brown land?

The solution to telecommunications in this country is simple. What is passed off as grand vision is actually an excuse for side-stepping what needs to be done. And that side stepping and the wild promises will cost us for generations to come. History says the costs will blow-out and it's logical that access costs will blow out at a similar rate.

Affordable to achieve the desired outcome this way? Show me the numbers!


10 April 2009, 11:35 PM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

auzdark (New user):

this is state level crap, not federal.

12 April 2009, 4:50 AM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

auzdark (New user):

well, the 'potholes' and 'CBD infastructure' seems to only relate to Sydney, which falls under State Government, so it doesn't matter what the Opposition say.

12 April 2009, 4:50 AM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

auzdark (New user):

Dammit... round 3, this site kinda sucks are registering for comments, but The 'pot holes' and 'CBD infastructure' relate to Sydney, which is a State government issue, so it wont affect what the Federal government wants to do, the State will still get their budgets that they wont spend on roads and such.

12 April 2009, 4:52 AM (7 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

John Nash (New user):

The way to get competitive forces to bring down internet access prices is to have more alternatives. The solution put forward by the government is a very costly solution where the level of competition generated is questionable. Something could be done right now to achieve a big boost in low cost, fast access to the internet. Allow data over power lines, DPL. I have been using DPL over the last few years in Hong Kong and I think it is great. Oh, and the cost, less than AUD $7 per month! This is what I call REAL competition.

John Nash

21 April 2009, 6:58 PM (6 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

beachking (New user):

K.Rudd 22 M.Turnbull 0

25 August 2009, 5:56 AM (2 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting beachking:
K.Rudd 22 M.Turnbull 0

More acurately it's

Krudd propaganda machine 99

Australian Internet(business) progress -99

Photo shots of Rudd smirking for the carmar near the nearest convenient drum bulk fibre does not make a national network. How much closer to having broadband Internet are those that that thought an 07 vote for Kev would deliver? The could have been using a basic Wimax link by now instead of the whole lot of expensive nothing delivered via the incompetence of Conroy.

But you go ahead true believing BK, common sense was never compulsary.

25 August 2009, 7:36 AM (2 months ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

anonymous user Anonymous user


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