Windows 7 won't come with web browser in Europe

todd_h86 (Cornerstone member):

Yeah that makes to me to! Why they are at why not make certain cars come with no fuel, so the consumer can choose which fuel to use! How do you get to the fuel? Its a conundrum wrapped in an enigma wrapped in some stupid policy from some of the most technolicaly inept people in the world.

Damn you EU DAMN YOU TO HELL

Oh and for full disclosure this post was written from Internet Explorer 8 that was installed with Windows 7

McBanjo (User):

Are you completely crazy? Haven't you heard Safari 4 runs Javascript 8x faster and loads HTML webpages 3x faster than IE8? When I saw IE8 for the first time, I died inside. WTF has happened to Microsoft? It can't even get half-decent marks in Acid3 tests with all its own proprietary web standards. And accelerators? Talk about bloated garbage. You have to click through 5 different screens JUST to get started browsing.

EU should be blocking IE8, not for anti-trust reasons, but only to rid the world of the mediocrity of Internet Explorer.

Bicycle (New user):

YES.

I have to use Intergay explorer 8 for school. Mediocre is an overstatement.

Halcon (Advanced member):

Put this simply, Microsoft has been abusing of its power around the world.
Now the European Union is trying to stop this, this is good for some reasons.
On the other side of the coin, this is exaggerated, because as any government in the world, they try to make some revenue with companies that earn big money, as it was reported here in APC website what the EU did to Intel.
If MS is going to make Win 7 without IE available then it should include working versions of the other browsers available in the install disc.
This way, people will choose their preferred browser, that's it!

todd_h86 (Cornerstone member):

But how is it Microsofts responsibility to make sure people have a choice in what browser they use? What next an installer for Open Office instead of notepad? The EU is power tripping and trying to take Microsoft down a couple of pegs, sure I can understand wanting to keep the big boys in check but with a BROWSER! I mean browsers a FREE SOFTWARE WHICH DONT MAKE MONEY themselves, so how can you put this into the same context as the other violations the EU has concocted against Microsoft? IE doesn't make money, Firefox doesn't make money Chrome doesn't make money, sure they get a 'kick back' whenever someone searches through their broweser but the browser doesnt make money!!! i'm sure the EU has much better things to be putting time, money and effort into than making a company remove/add a free component to its software I mean come on!

Do you see Mac OS X Linux being distributed with Chrome and Firefox? NO
Why? Well Microsoft havent allowed but no the point of my post, the EU is pushing Microsoft to not make people use IE (Cause the 2 min job it takes to download and install Firefox is so tedious) but it is not pushing the other OS's to do the same (sure some Linux distros come with more than one browser). The EU needs to wake up and take a reality check.

Also, this is nothing like the EU's strike agaisnt Intel, that was deserved, but still only a slap on the wrist for what it could have been. Intel was giving kick backs to PC makers for using their products, was different to Microsoft using their own browser on their own OS....

Halcon (Advanced member):

Well you see, any government will try to make up an excuse and then make a cash grab.
Sure the Europeans are completely stupid, but the reality is that, Microsoft makes money out of IE indirectly, how? by selling the OS, that's is why the EU think the browser is a treat to them.
They should have focused on the abuse of the OS instead, then the supremacy for that area would be in check.

TV Bis (User):

Quoting Halcon:
Sure the Europeans are completely stupid

Ok if you say so!


Quoting Halcon:
the reality is that, Microsoft makes money out of IE indirectly, how? by selling the OS,

Nobody buys Windows OS because they want the IE browser.
I don't buy a car because I won't that company’s radio. It's there because it is part of the package.
If Google had their own OS do you not think they would include Chrome?

Try and be a bit more logical and stop bashing a company all because you are jealous of its achievements.........

Halcon (Advanced member):

Quoting TV Bis:
Ok if you say so!

If you are European, my sincere apologies, my comment was not meant to offend european people, just to point out the dysfunctional idiosyncrasy of the politicians there.

The Big Baboo (User):

Quoting Halcon:
Just to point out the dysfunctional idiosyncrasy of the politicians there.
Hi "Halcon" Don't you kind of think our politicians are a bunch of idiosyncratic dysfunctionysts as well.In fact,if you look around the world,that's just about what you're getting everywhere in the world nowadays.
No one wants to serve their country anymore :( they just want to retire with a pension that's five times what they were paid when they were working and which they didn't contribute a cent towards.

Halcon (Advanced member):

Quoting The Big Baboo:
Don't you... think our politicians are a bunch of idiosyncratic dysfunctionysts... they just want to retire with a pension that's five times what they were paid when they were working and which they didn't contribute a cent towards.

Well you you see, these are a bunch of parasites doing really nothing!
The ALP wants to impose its tyrant regime upon us, with the Internet censorship, you and I and everyone else pays a lot of money for a decent service.
A web browser is necessary for a variety of tasks, to do online shopping, banking, gather information for study or business and leisure, without it nobody can access the web, am thinking the PC builders must include an alternative on disc or installed prior to be sold or delivered to the user.

NetR@nger (User):

Quoting Halcon:
The ALP wants to impose its tyrant regime upon us, with the Internet censorship


To tell you the truth,(and i helped write the code so i should know),internet censorship has been in effect for some time in this country.

The Big Baboo (User):

Quoting Halcon:
A web browser is necessary for a variety of tasks, to do online shopping, banking, gather information for study or business and leisure.

Hi "Halcon" In no way would I ever do any sort of banking online :) Paranoid you may say. Probably I would reply.Yes I do order the odd concert ticket on-line or book an airfare somewhere but regular everyday banking nooooooooooo way. Besides you can't get money out of a PC. I like to feel the cash in my hand so I actually go into the bank,see the teller and get the money :) Mind you with the way things are going,pretty soon that will be just about impossible and we'll all be reduced to a bunch of numbers on somebody's calculator if that hasn't happened already :) Have a good one wherever you are :)

Jeff (User):

Quoting todd_h86:
What next an installer for Open Office instead of notepad?


How can you draw a comparison between different browsers (which are comparable, even though IE is a load of crap) and notepad with Open Office? notepad is the worlds worst text editor (hell dos's edit is better) with Open Office, which is a full fledged office suite of tools comparable with MS Office - there is just no comparison there.

Quoting todd_h86:
Do you see Mac OS X Linux being distributed with Chrome and Firefox?


I assume you mean Mac OS X AND Linux, just to start? First - when you see Chrome for Mac or Linux let me know. I know they are going to do it, but as of yet I don't think there are even betas available!! Second - most linux distributions typically ship with a range of browsers and more easily accessible through repositories (e.g. lynx, firefox, galleon, konqueror, etc.)

Quoting todd_h86:
was different to Microsoft using their own browser on their own OS....


This anti-trust thing with MS and IE has been going on, on and off ever since MS first made IE part of windows, back in the days of netscape dominance!!

Aubrey (Advanced member):

Quoting Jeff:
First - when you see Chrome for Mac or Linux let me know.


Chrome (or Chromium,as it is called in the fully free version) has been available for Linux for a little while now as a beta from a launchpad repo: see this how-to:

http://www.ubuntugeek.com/how-to-install-chromium-google-chrome-in-ubuntu-using-deb-package.html

I'm using it on a netbook and it is truly VERY FAST but under featured (yet). I usually use Firefox or Seamonkey but Chromium is looking like a nice alternative.

Halcon (Advanced member):

Another source says something more about it, for details go to : http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/307233/microsoft_sell_windows_7_europe_without_browser?fp=2&fpid=1

muttzz (New user):

There seems to be a lot of commentary on this decision from people who are obviously completely ignorant of the issues the EU are trying to address. By the way, Microsofts' decision not to ship any browser whatsoever isn't exactly what the EU were after, but it's typical of Microsoft to not do what's asked of them.

todd_h86 (Cornerstone member):

I am well aware of what the eu is trying to do, i dont agree with it and think their demands are illogical and irrational.

If Microsft complied with everything the eu wanted, Microsft would be a very different company and it would not be for the best.

Maybe I am ignorant of the issues the eu are trying to address, or maybe I just don't see how trying to get Microsoft to not ship its OWN browser with its OWN OS will benefit anything. Is it infringement of an anti-trust/anti-competitive 'law' no its not, IE is all through Windows, has been since Windows 95 and they cannot remove it from the code without removing a large portion of compatibilty and stability issues (more than normal smart arses!) IE is baked in Windows, its not an application you can just untick and have it not be there.

This is really all Mozilla's and Opera's problem with Microsoft having a larger share of the browser market, nothing else, and they decided to bring in the eu as big bad daddy to make Microsoft play fair because they are loosing, even though LEGALLY MICROSOFT IS DOING NOTHING WRONG. If they have such an issue then why don't they program their own OS and install their own browser by default, you wont see Apple or Google on the companies pushing for the eu to be involved, why, because Apple has OS X with Safari and Google now has Android and GOS with Chrome. Again I'll say why isnt this suit agaisnt Microsoft also agaisnt Apple? I don't see any other browser but Safari when I install OS X.

muttzz (New user):

The EU weren't specifically trying to stop Microsoft from shipping it's own browser with the OS but wanted users to have a choice of browser as the PC is shipped. This decision made by Microsoft is their way of having PC's shipped not only not with IE, but more importantly not with Mozilla or Opera by default as well.
The stance the EU is taking with Microsoft is the result of anti-competitive behavior by Microsoft over quite a long period, this behavior strongly influencing the software landscape available to the general public, and not for the better.
Many people are currently pointing out that they believe this is no longer necessary, in relation to browsers at least, because the general user is aware of their options with respect to the other browsers out there. This awareness of alternative browsers is mostly restricted to the more technically proficient users, which thankfully is quite a lot of people, but not nearly the great majority of users.

todd_h86 (Cornerstone member):

It doesnt make sense, no matter how much you try to convey the same point across, the eu are being wankers on this, and are just acting on pressure from mozilla and opera while not being obviously fully informed on how an internet browser works...

I know plenty of non 'technically proficient users' who know what firefox is and where to get it. You can't hide behind that veil anymore, maybe 5 yrs ago, but not today.

TV Bis (User):

Quoting muttzz:
This decision made by Microsoft is their way of having PC's shipped not only not with IE, but more importantly not with Mozilla or Opera by default as well.

Would Ford ship their cars with Toyota parts? I don't think so!

Quoting muttzz:
this behavior strongly influencing the software landscape available to the general public, and not for the better.

Can you not download a browser of your choice? Can you not run any browser on Windows?

Everyone is missing the point here. Microsoft did not just develop IE, it made the whole “Operating System”.

When will the world wake up to itself, a company which has sunk billions of dollars into developing a complete OS - it should have the right to include or exclude what ever it wants as long as it does not stop you from running 3rd party software on that OS.
If other browser companies want to complain then they should bypass Windows and deveolpe their own OS.

Come on world - I mean it is only software! There are more important things in life to fix other than computer software..............

Jeff (User):

Quoting todd_h86:
they cannot remove it from the code without removing a large portion of compatibilty and stability issues (more than normal smart arses!)

And why do you think MS has so many compatibility, stability and security problems? It's because they have built a giant, intertwined and monolithic monster of an OS. Forcing them to separate out the IE code, and making it completely independent could turn out to be the best for both sides.

Quoting todd_h86:
Again I'll say why isnt this suit agaisnt Microsoft also agaisnt Apple?


As I mentioned in my other post, this battle with MS and IE started back in the days of netscape and when browsers where sold. This and the fact that MS has dominance of the market, meaning that if it does something anti-competitive it has a massive impact, whereas Apple has almost no impact on anything.

Aubrey (Advanced member):

Quoting muttzz:
There seems to be a lot of commentary on this decision from people who are obviously completely ignorant of the issues the EU are trying to address.


The understatement of the year, mutzz. This is great news IMO. And its not about browsers per se, it is about abuse of market dominance and "dumping" to destroy competitors. If people don't get it, they deserve whatever MS has in mind for them. Thank goodness for the EU. Our own regulators seem to let MS get away with anything.

nickjohn (New user):

Thank God for the European Union's Anti-Competition Police it about time that IE was removed from

Windows Bloated Program

Windows Media Player already removed in Europe Windows XP & Vista

Don't Like, Don't Want, Don't Use any of the above programs

In fact in Windows7 the US version you can also remove IE8

Using the Control Panel (All Items View) click on the Programs And Features Icon.

In the left pane, click on the Turn Windows features On or Off Link.

Just un-check any of the listed feature and it would be removed from the program list

Games - Internet Games

Internet Explorer 8

Internet Information Services - FTP Server

Internet Information Services Hostable Web Core

Media Features

Microsoft .NET Framework 3.51

Services for NFS (Network File System)

Subsystem for UNIX-based Applications

TIFF IFilter

Windows Gadget Platform

Windows Search

XPS Services

XPS Viewer

Turning off a feature does not uninstall the feature, it just turn it off

The features remain stored so you can turn them back on if you want to

TV Bis (User):

Quoting nickjohn:
Thank God for the European Union's Anti-Competition Police it about time that IE was removed from

Windows Bloated Program

gee wiz buddy why do you use Windows at all????????????????????

nickjohn (New user):

Thank God for the European Union's Anti-Competition Police it about time that IE was removed from

Windows Bloated Program

Windows Media Player already removed in Europe Windows XP & Vista

Don't Like, Don't Want, Don't Use any of the above programs

In fact in Windows7 the US version you can also remove IE8

Using the Control Panel (All Items View) click on the Programs And Features Icon.

In the left pane, click on the Turn Windows features On or Off Link.

Just un-check any of the listed feature and it would be removed from the program list

Games - Internet Games

Internet Explorer 8

Internet Information Services - FTP Server

Internet Information Services Hostable Web Core

Media Features

Microsoft .NET Framework 3.51

Services for NFS (Network File System)

Subsystem for UNIX-based Applications

TIFF IFilter

Windows Gadget Platform

Windows Search

XPS Services

XPS Viewer

Turning off a feature does not uninstall the feature, it just turn it off

The features remain stored so you can turn them back on if you want to

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Gotta love the MS fanboys reactions to this... Ignore the facts and just call the EU stupid... Fact: It's something only required in the EU, and is basically an option for vendors and major companies.
First of all, no sane vendor will ship a computer without a browser. Some will choose IE8, some will choose Firefox, some Chrome and some Opera (unlikely any will pick Safari or lesser known browsers).
Second, even if vendors go neutral and sell computers without a browser, how hard do you think it will be to tick the box for IE in the Windows Features dialog? And how hard do you think it will be for vendors to create a little app that installs your choice of browser at first logon?

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Aubrey:
This is great news IMO. And its not about browsers per se, it is about abuse of market dominance and "dumping" to destroy competitors.

And about rejection of the enforced introduction of de-facto standards based on proprietary licensed technology. Microsoft has made many attempts to hijack the industry and lock users in to it's proprietary systems, it is this that the EU is acting against.

There is no issue with inclusion of a branded browser, there is real issue when that browser is interwoven with the OS in an attempt to proliferate non standard and licensed systems, that is what the EU has acted against.

Microsoft have proven to act ONLY in their own interests, this is predatory and is a quite different action to simple good business. Heaven forbid Microsoft even attempted to impose it's own Internet upon us at one point.

Quoting Tin:
First of all, no sane vendor will ship a computer without a browser. Some will choose IE8, some will choose Firefox, some Chrome and some Opera

I'm not so sure, or more to the point sure whether vendors will ship with browsers etc preinstalled. It would be nice to see some innovation with regard to applications preloaded with a given OS. Sure some demand everything bar the kitchen sink installed with a base version, but equally many of us would prefer the choice to select exactly what we install. Both Windows and Linux have been caught up in the feature frenzy and neither have got it right, but at least with Linux removal is trivial.

The EU rulings are about enforcement of proprietary technologies not about features, but hopefully rulings like the EU one can bring some rationality to how OSs are shipped.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
I'm not so sure, or more to the point sure whether vendors will ship with browsers etc preinstalled.


Oh, they will. There's enough money being thrown about over Firefox and Chrome that someone will pay vendors to preinstall them. And end users aren't generally smart enough to know how to get one on there, so something will ship with it (bare minimum a program that installs the users choice).

jake (User):

wouldnt ms have t re-write half of the windows code base to compleetly remove ie... although that wouldn't be half bad in terms of fixing more problems in the os.
windows 7's code is much cleaner and neater and overal makes it perform better. remove ie from it and walla you have something about equal in satability to osx

TV Bis (User):

Quoting jake:
wouldnt ms have t re-write half of the windows code base to compleetly remove ie

this is the very point. IE is part of Windows code base - not an add on............

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting TV Bis:
this is the very point. IE is part of Windows code base - not an add on............

And it's the very point of the EU that it is a design that may not be in the best interest of consumers particularly given IE's track record of non compliance with published Internet standards.

Aubrey (Advanced member):

And just why a browser NEEDS to be "integrated" with the OS is anybody's guess. Mine would be that it has nothing to do with functionality or user benefits.

petert (Senior member):

Quoting TV Bis:
this is the very point. IE is part of Windows code base - not an add on............

And as others correctly pointed-out, THAT is the problem. There is simply no need to incorrect IE as part of the code base. It could perform just as well (or poorly!) as a stand-alone application. There is no more need to incorporate IE as part of the code base than there is to do so with Word, Excel, Outlook or any other application.

Sp33d d3mon (Cornerstone member):

GAH Safari 4. I updated from the Beta to the full version, and it JUST KEEPS CRASHING. I got the Silver MacBook 13", which Apple does not support anymore. Any ideas?