SCAPEGOAT: iiNet sued over BitTorrent piracy

Raindog (New user):

This is garbage, it's like suing a service station for selling fuel for a car later used for a robbery, or suing Telstra for all the illegal activity that happens across their cable.

I'll bet that idiot Conroy will be nowhere to be seen and will do nothing to stop an unfair impost being applied to an Australian ISP and ultimately passed onto its customers.

If Hollywood want to stop the pirate then let it pursue the pirates and only the pirates.

Tin (User):

Quoting Raindog:
it's like suing a service station for selling fuel for a car later used for a robbery


Or like suing a company that runs public train services if some robbers make off with the loot via the trains.

Potoroo (User):

The Unfair Trade Agreement Howard signed with the US contains a safe haven requirement we are supposed to have implemented. Given that we signed up for every other anti-consumer requirement the US wanted us to (like DMCA), it would be delicious irony if an Australian company actually gained something from it more substantive than the half-right to sell a bit of extra steak in America that the arch-cowards we turfed at the last election tried to persuade us was a good deal.

NetR@nger (New user):

Mate,if i own a store that sells knives and one of those knives ends up stabbing and killing someone,does that mean that im partly responsibe for that attack???.I dont think so.Its never going to stand up in court.They suppy broadband,and its none of there damned business what people download and nor should it be.These film companys make tens of millons of dollars a year,it doesnt effect there bottom line at all.

TV Bis (New user):

Companies have to be responsible for what happens on their systems because if they did not exist in the first place then piracy would not happen. Even the ISP that hosts this site has to be responsible for what is written and displayed because if not - it is too liable for not taking any action against a known illegal action. These movie companies have to protect their investments and if they find out that some ISP has been knowingly turning a blind eye to illegal downloads then someone has to be accountable. If they cannot get to the individual then the ISP has to help in anyway possible which includes cancellation of the individual from that ISP if the action is proven.

The Internet reminds me of the days when CB Radio first took off in Australia. It was all serious and fun at first but then you started getting idiots coming into the scene which spoilt it for the rest of society.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting TV Bis:
Companies have to be responsible for what happens on their systems because if they did not exist in the first place then piracy would not happen.

Exactly, DVD player manufacturers should withdraw all machines from sale, electricity companies should cut supply because that electricity could run a projector showing a pirated movie. Printing supply companies are not innocent either because their ink could be used for pirate covers.

And last but not least the Hollywood movie companies should also be sued for their obvious entrapment scheme of producing new movies that people want to watch.

Lets just sue everyone and we are sure to make a difference on piracy. :>

Do you think the man that runs the Internet is sitting their watching every file you transfer?


Quoting TV Bis:
The Internet reminds me of the days when CB Radio first took off

Must be the antenna on your wi-fi. 10-4

TV Bis (New user):

Quoting Raindog:
Lets just sue everyone and we are sure to make a difference on piracy. :>

No - let’s just all start obeying the laws that are put there to protect people’s property and to stop thinking that because no one can see you sitting there in front of your screen, you can just do what you want!



Quoting Raindog:
Do you think the man that runs the Internet is sitting there watching every file you transfer?

No, but if it's possible to monitor the entire internet for certain keywords in regards to Terrorism then I am sure there would be away of adding and checking Metadata within a video file before it is downloaded.

Nathan_Never (New user):

As I already said in another post this copyright thing has gone too far.

Governments are taking steps to protect the millionaire industry interest but nobody is protecting the normal people interest. To the point that I am not able to watch my legally bought DVD overseas. All because the Hollywood majors are too greedy.

Also what about selling a movie from the 80s at about $40 only because is on Blue Ray while the same movie on DVD cost $5 - $10???

They are too greedy and this is affecting the freedom of honest people.

Lower the prices, remove some restriction to fight piracy.

Metal_Gman (New user):

Slowly but surely everywhere rights are being eroded. The recent attempt by governement to filter the internet is a prime example.
The internet was built by the people, for the people. Not for some scummy corporation to control.
It is the last frontier of freedom, in the day and age where simply saying "Bomb" can have you thrown in jail, for an unknown amount of time.

Be afraid.

DFTBA (New user):

Quoting Metal_Gman:
The internet was built by the people, for the people.


It was created by ARPA, a division of the US defence force probably a largest example of the 'man', specifically anti "the people". Then built from there by large telcos and the like. Maybe specifically the www was built by the people. But this is still ruled by American domain name registers.

Metal_Gman (New user):

Slowly but surely our rights erode. Americanisation is at our doorstep. The corporate bully's of america have come to loot and plunder our interwebs.
Not to mention ruddy boy thinks communism is a great idea, filter our interwebs will he! Not on my watch.

Gman

thepumpboy (New user):

give us Hulu and the US content on iTunes and Boxee WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS, then they'll probably stop bittorrent

pmx (New user):

Yeah .. bring it on.

The studios etc are finally realising they have to target the ISP's.

In the end the ISP's are the ones making all the money from internet access and downloads.

If the studios / content owners are smart, instead on suing them to stop downloads they will charge the ISP's for downloads of their content .. where ever it is sourced from. Then, finally, we'll be moving towards an efficient cost effective content distribution model.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting pmx:
The studios etc are finally realising they have to target the ISP's.

Which is a folly, shooting the messenger will only result in a change of messenger service.


Quoting pmx:
In the end the ISP's are the ones making all the money from Internet access and downloads.

All the money? I think you'd be best to look at what proportion of those assumed massive profits actually go to the ISP.
Given that the ISPs are the ones providing the Internet access and the medium for your downloads, why do you see it as unreasonable for them to profit from that?


Quoting pmx:
If the studios / content owners are smart

Which they are not, clearly Hollywood has proven incapable of adapting to changes in technology and to delivery and usage patterns of it's market.


Quoting pmx:
instead on suing them to stop downloads they will charge the ISP's for downloads of their content

They will? How will they do that? I hope your not suggesting some nonsense universal service charge that would end up levied on all users.


Quoting pmx:
where ever it is sourced from

So how do you propose levying a Hollywood service tax, on some anonymous P2P upload of a ripped DVD?


Quoting pmx:
Then, finally, we'll be moving towards an efficient cost effective content distribution model.

If Hollywood was to brace less greedy and more flexible distribution models then likely the piracy problem would diminish to a great extent.

Same old, same old, the greed of Hollywood pitched against the greed of backroom pirates.

It's a nonsense to see Hollywood persecuting ISPs and backroom downloads, when suitcase loads of commercially pirated DVDs are standard souvenirs of every flight out of Asia.

From a personal viewpoint the content of anything coming out of Hollywood lately is such superficial garbage you'd wonder why anyone would bother to rip, burn, download, pirate or more importantly watch it.

Tin (User):

Wow... Here's a genius.
That sounds about as smart and fair as the German tax on CD-Rs that goes back to music distributors, or the APRA licensing that bases royalty distribution on the playlists from popular radio stations.

Since the ISPs have no way of tracking the distributor of a given file, I can only assume your plan was as per the above. Or are you suggesting the government's slow down filter is a good plan?

pmx (New user):

If a user upgrades there plan to increase their download quota so they can download more movies, then the ISP is making 'all' the money. I'm not saying they're profits are massive. I am saying they the ISP doesn't pass on any of that profit to the content owner, hence the lawsuit.

Not a charge for all users, just for downloaders of music/tv/movies etc. Those ISP people are pretty smart. They'll figure out. Given that they can currently block/throttle otherwise restrict P2P traffic I'm pretty sure that can track it and charge for it. They just need an incentive.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting pmx:
If a user upgrades there plan to increase their download quota so they can download more movies

But what about the user that has increased his quota for any number of other legitimate uses, to cater for increased usage from his business, to allow more time on legally purchased network shoot-em-up games, to up and download media of his/her own creation. Quota is not a reliable indicator of the legality of Internet use.


Quoting pmx:
then the ISP is making 'all' the money.

How is the ISP making ALL the money just because a quota has increased?


Quoting pmx:
I'm not saying they're profits are massive.

In most instances they are not. Tough business.



Quoting pmx:
I am saying they the ISP doesn't pass on any of that profit to the content owner,

The ISP had mothing to do with illegal use or procurement of the content. Should Qantas contribute to hollywood because tons of pirate DVDs routinely are delivered on their flights as cabin baggage?


Quoting pmx:
Not a charge for all users, just for downloaders of music/tv/movies etc.

So that man who runs the Internet will have to check the origin, ownership, legality of every file transferred will he?


Quoting pmx:
Those ISP people are pretty smart. They'll figure out.

Red China is pretty smart, but they have never been able to figure out totally managing what Internet content arrives/originates within their network.


Quoting pmx:
They'll figure out. Given that they can currently block/throttle otherwise restrict P2P traffic

A brute force mechanism which unfairly disadvantages legitimate users of P2P services such as independent musicians. Are we to encourage the stifling of the little guy to protect excessive Hollywood profits.

Quoting pmx:
I'm pretty sure that can track it and charge for it.

How sure. A brad brush is the best that is practically obtainable and this will disadvantage individual legally going about their own business. Then you come to the how and the why of an ISP charging for a something for which they have no clear terms of contract.


Quoting pmx:
They just need an incentive.

No they need to be allowed to go about their business without unnecessary interference and red tape. If Hollywood wants to address piracy then it need to pursue the offenders not one of many delivery mediums. It's not iiNets job to enforce any action on behalf of greedy and incompetent studios.

pmx (New user):

ISP's are the point of sale. You give the ISP money, they give you the data. With P2P downloading this the the only point at which money is cash exchanged for directly the end product.

If I want to upgrade my monthly download plan from 500 Mb to 5 GB cause I'm sick of waiting to SBS to screen the latest series of Top Gear then I pay the ISP more. I'm pretty sure none of than will go into Jeremy Clarkson's pocket. The ISP makes 'all' the money.

If the only way to get pirated DVD's from the place they are sold to the play they are used was via a someones bag on a Qantas jet then it would be pretty cheap and effective for the studios to get together and put a couple of people at the airports in Australia to open up bags coming in, count the DVD's and charge a few bucks.

Yep those ISP people are pretty smart. With the right incentive they would have no problem at all tracking every byte per user and charging them appropriately with little or no discernable effect on legit users or the little guys.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting pmx:
ISP's are the point of sale.

What sale? No sale has taken place, neither has an ISP been party to any illegal sale or taken monies for same.



Quoting pmx:
You give the ISP money, they give you the data.

No the ISP offers a medium by which data of the users choice can be obtained.


Quoting pmx:
With P2P downloading this the the only point at which money is cash exchanged for directly the end product.

No monies are exchanged for P2P downloads, any payment to an ISP is for provision of a medium to facilitate the download.


Quoting pmx:
If I want to upgrade my monthly download plan from 500 Mb to 5 GB ...... then I pay the ISP more.

You pay more for a provision of more data of your choice to be carried via the ISP's service.


Quoting pmx:
I'm pretty sure none of than will go into Jeremy Clarkson's pocket.

Only thing that should go into those pockets are hand grenades without pins but that is a digression from the topic at hand.



Quoting pmx:
If the only way to get pirated DVD's from .... was via a someones bag on a Qantas jet then it would be pretty cheap and effective for the studios to get together and put a couple of people at the airports in Australia to open up bags coming in, count the DVD's and charge a few bucks.

And yet tonnes of them sail through customs every week, something may not be as easy as you suggest, or perhaps Hollywood is bullying the individual while ignoring widespread commercial piracy.


Quoting pmx:
Yep those ISP people are pretty smart. With the right incentive they would have no problem at all tracking every byte per user and charging them appropriately with little or no discernable effect on legit users or the little guys.

Every byte eh, that guy who runs the Internet sure could make a difference.

dannylberry (New user):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXwmXpaH2Q
that is how

pmx (New user):

No, you pay for data. If they were just providing a medium then they would only charge more for higher speeds, not download caps. The service they provide is bandwidth which, of which the overall quantity of data is a imporant part. Is the US you only pay for the medium and that is why they having problems.

A quote from an article in todays 'Crikey' on the subject .. "It (iiNet) is also in bed with Apple, as the company does not include downloads from the iTunes music store when toting up its customers data usage each month". Peering allowances .. all that sort of stuff .. ISP's can do it all with the right incentive.

Look at it from another perspective. Assume for a moment that we're all reasonable people who are happy to pay a reasonable price to access online movies, music, TV shows etc. What better model could there be. The ISPs already have the infrastructure in place. I rather pay them a bit extra instead of getting ripped off by Apple and iTunes.

Raindog (New user):

Quoting pmx:
No, you pay for data.

Listen carefully, your ISP is a carrier of data, apart from a few chunks on its own homepage, the data come from somewhere else. Your ISP is not the author of the data you as a user choose to receive. You are paying for carriage of data and a volume of it, you are not paying your ISP to author or copy data on your behalf.


Quoting pmx:
"It (iiNet) is also in bed with Apple, as the company does not include downloads from the iTunes music

And what in the hell does that have to do with the assertion that an ISP should somehow be responsible for illegal activity conducted while using a connection to their service?



Quoting pmx:
Look at it from another perspective.

No I'll stick to a rational, realistic and fair perspective thanks.


Quoting pmx:
Assume for a moment that we're all reasonable people who are happy to pay a reasonable price to access online movies

No need to assume on my behalf I'm entirely reasonable


Quoting pmx:
who are happy to pay a reasonable price to access online movies, music, TV shows etc.

At the odd time that anything interesting to watch or listen to surfaces, I have no problem with paying for it.


Quoting pmx:
What better model could there be.

Tell you what, you convince Hollywood to implement reasonable pricing and your model may grow legs. Should be simple as, right?


Quoting pmx:
The ISPs already have the infrastructure in place. I rather pay them a bit extra instead of getting ripped off by Apple and iTunes.

Most ISPs have no infrastructure for content billing, no is it necessarily a business they would or should consider entertaining.
If billing by content by ISPs was to begin it would destroy the Internet, something Telstra was and still is keen to prosper.

Criminals should be pursued directly it is not the ISP's job to clean up Hollywood's mess.

Tin (User):

Quoting pmx:
The ISPs already have the infrastructure in place.


For charging for movies and music? I don't think so. They have the ability to charge you for data used, and set aside different rates for different IP ranges, ports and times. No ISP has the ability to determine the correct pubisher of a given file and assign a royalty charge.

gankul (User):

actually most people are incresing there bandwidth because file sizes have increased alot, if you want to download legally purchased movies, games or programs, it can take a huge amount of bandwith.

1 game can take up the 5 gig limit.

1 copy of autodesk civil 3d can take up most if not all of it.

and thats not if your computer does not crape itself, or your net not crape iteself, and if you are nt using a download manager you might have to start again......

I download games, movies legally from the US, but only when our dollar is close to theres.

(co-incidently, copyright has gotten so bad now that i cant play legally purchased and owned games on my ocmputer because i use daemon tools for work. so how is it that i only have legal things on my computer, yet cant use something i legally purchased.)

Halcon (User):

This situation is rubbish, the movie studios are trying to do is extortion for what they believe is against their greedy interests.
The movie industry should embrace the digital era, this is the 21st century not 1900; they should be more flexible and not to charge too much money for a movie.
I am enraged that these bastards placed Australia with south America in region 4 DVD (however, not all DVDs are in Spanish language, I have to buy these DVDs from America Region 1 or Spain Region 2)
Talking about Region 2 DVDs, these items are three times more expensive than here, if Hollywood studios want to make money they should do that charging a lot less, after all, with a lot of titles to build a big library of DVD movies, it should be sensible, they will not loss any money.
One thing they should do is create a Movie on Demand delivery system that should cater for the needs of everyone, such Audio languages, subtitles and special features packaged and ready to buy upon an special order, No more bothering to buy from overseas, discs with selected languages and a layout to choose from for the label.
I do oppose to the paid model of downloadable movies, because these always come with DRM, downloading a lot of them will mean the data allowance will reach to zero and no way to browse the internet.
Many will experience data surcharge this will be dearly expensive.
The finished product appeal more than downloading a movie, burning will take an eternity and more disgusting is spending a lot of money just to print the cover and the label for the disc.
Its time these bullies stop their dirty tactics and think that to fight against piracy the only way is to provide an affordable product so everyone wins.

pmx (New user):

Of course they have the infrastructure Tin. They've got loads and loads of computers, big data pipes, tracking and invoicing systems, and ombudsman to keep an eye on them its all set to go. See previous comments about iTunes and peer allowances.

Imagine if you will that its all legal. Instead of ripped pirated copies people are transferred some sort of official file with all the necessary data encoded. The ISP could easily track every file transferred through its network. This opens up a range of opportunities.
I'd prefer a users pays for data model rather than the per title models that are currently used for movie downloads. That would give you the flexibility of choosing a smaller lower res edition and pay less for it.
Imagine if the uploaders on a P2P network could get paid by the studios for the amount of data they provide, like putting power back into the grid from your home solar array.

Jammit (New user):

It's ironic how the people who manage channel 7 are off in hot pursuit of IInet given that:

The people hwo manage channel 7 -

Work in collusion with "child psychologists" to Deliberately target children - to pressure parents to buy them things; without which they will not be whole;

And they keep them glued to the screen, eating junk food, and buying what ever they are told too; while the people who manage channel 7 profit from raising crop after crop of feel good addicted fat and diseased consumers.

The people who manage channel 7 profit psychologically targeting peope to make them sick, and then they blame the government.

The people who manage channel 7 also sensationalise and trivialise matters of importance, and turn the act of getting things done into point scoring and popularity contests - playing enemies and allies mind games.

The people who manage channel 7 also promote car racing and the sales of gas guzzling "keeping up with the Jones junk" for a buck - even as we start to tumble into the precipice of no return....

They train people to medicate themselves into their graves with sex, food, drugs and gossip; keeping them glued to the screens - in order to make a buck - and then they say "Oh aren't the people who we have shown how to do any thing for a buck bad" when we can catch them out doing what we have been doing for decades......

Raindog (New user):

Quoting Jammit:
They train people to medicate themselves into their graves with sex, food, drugs and gossip; keeping them glued to the screens

Train people? IS it a course at TAFE? gullibility for the clueless masses to certificate level? If you cannot cope then switch it off, stop the TV, unplug your Internet and then hide under the table. Do it now it's for your own good.

Jammit (New user):

It's ironic how the people who manage channel 7 are off in hot pursuit of IInet given that:

The people hwo manage channel 7 -

Work in collusion with "child psychologists" to Deliberately target children - to pressure parents to buy them things; without which they will not be whole;

And they keep them glued to the screen, eating junk food, and buying what ever they are told too; while the people who manage channel 7 profit from raising crop after crop of feel good addicted fat and diseased consumers.

The people who manage channel 7 profit psychologically targeting peope to make them sick, and then they blame the government.

The people who manage channel 7 also sensationalise and trivialise matters of importance, and turn the act of getting things done into point scoring and popularity contests - playing enemies and allies mind games.

The people who manage channel 7 also promote car racing and the sales of gas guzzling "keeping up with the Jones junk" for a buck - even as we start to tumble into the precipice of no return....

They train people to medicate themselves into their graves with sex, food, drugs and gossip; keeping them glued to the screens - in order to make a buck - and then they say "Oh aren't the people who we have shown how to do any thing for a buck bad" when we can catch them out doing what we have been doing for decades......

Lying, cheating, miseading, manipulating adn robbing people... anything for a buck.

As the SS said, "I was only following orders" - and as long as the people who manage and work for channel 7 don't have to take personal responsibility for everything they have done - then they are no different to the nazis - and their responsibility shifting.

And in every individual in channel 7 doing everything they have done and not taking responsibility for it, and changing their ways - they are the ethical nazis of the past, today, tomorrow and the future - for all time.

If everyone had of said, "No" then there would have been no world war 2; and yet, here we are sailing through the cross roads saying "What in the hell has happened - "I made the car, I sold the car and I bought and drove the car..... - and as long as non of us have to take any person responsibility - none of us are to blame."

Oh wait a second.... there are lots of people watching stuff without paying for it... that's it - it's their fault - they are keeping us out of the money loop, they are keeping us from selling them junk food and keeping them glued to the screens, telling them that if they don't have the latest model gas guzzling car - they what will people think of them... they might think they are a loser, a failure - some one who couldn't make it.. up to the standards we set for them as being normal..

The fat, the diseased, the cancer ridden - from eating the crap we tell them too and not getting out and exercising....

The people who manage channel 7 are the liars and thieves. They steal life and health and self esteem - and destroy the planet - all in the name of a fast buck.

Jammit (New user):

It's ironic how the people who manage channel 7 are off in hot pursuit of IInet given that:

The people hwo manage channel 7 -

Work in collusion with "child psychologists" to Deliberately target children - to pressure parents to buy them things; without which they will not be whole;

And they keep them glued to the screen, eating junk food, and buying what ever they are told too; while the people who manage channel 7 profit from raising crop after crop of feel good addicted fat and diseased consumers.

The people who manage channel 7 profit psychologically targeting peope to make them sick, and then they blame the government.

The people who manage channel 7 also sensationalise and trivialise matters of importance, and turn the act of getting things done into point scoring and popularity contests - playing enemies and allies mind games.

The people who manage channel 7 also promote car racing and the sales of gas guzzling "keeping up with the Jones junk" for a buck - even as we start to tumble into the precipice of no return....

They train people to medicate themselves into their graves with sex, food, drugs and gossip; keeping them glued to the screens - in order to make a buck - and then they say "Oh aren't the people who we have shown how to do any thing for a buck bad" when we can catch them out doing what we have been doing for decades......

Lying, cheating, miseading, manipulating adn robbing people... anything for a buck.

As the SS said, "I was only following orders" - and as long as the people who manage and work for channel 7 don't have to take personal responsibility for everything they have done - then they are no different to the nazis - and their responsibility shifting.

And in every individual in channel 7 doing everything they have done and not taking responsibility for it, and changing their ways - they are the ethical nazis of the past, today, tomorrow and the future - for all time.

If everyone had of said, "No" then there would have been no world war 2; and yet, here we are sailing through the cross roads saying "What in the hell has happened - "I made the car, I sold the car and I bought and drove the car..... - and as long as non of us have to take any person responsibility - none of us are to blame."

Oh wait a second.... there are lots of people watching stuff without paying for it... that's it - it's their fault - they are keeping us out of the money loop, they are keeping us from selling them junk food and keeping them glued to the screens, telling them that if they don't have the latest model gas guzzling car - they what will people think of them... they might think they are a loser, a failure - some one who couldn't make it.. up to the standards we set for them as being normal..

The fat, the diseased, the cancer ridden - from eating the crap we tell them too and not getting out and exercising....

The people who manage channel 7 are the liars and thieves. They steal life and health and self esteem - and destroy the planet - all in the name of a fast buck.