REAL SCREENSHOTS: inside Windows 7

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

If (and only if)the reality matches the promises then this is promising stuff, and pointing to what Vista should have been.

MS however still appears to be in some kind of shell shock, wit their

* Any application or device on Vista should run on Windows 7
* A system which runs Vista should run faster with Windows 7
* Notebooks should get better battery life on Windows 7
* Windows 7 should be more stable than Windows Vista from day one
* Windows 7 should be the most secure version of Windows yet
With XP still the predominant operating system in use it looks like migration to Win7 will still have all the pitfalls and costs that Vista presented. So while more appealing what is presented here does little to help overcome a lot of oposition and aprehension.

In summary any efforts made to allow the user to have more control over their PC environment will be well received. Lots of pretty screenshots do not confirm this regaining of control, so only time and that actual personal appraisal will tell.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
With XP still the predominant operating system in use it looks like migration to Win7 will still have all the pitfalls and costs that Vista presented.

XP users are going to have to take a leap of faith sooner or later. Waiting for a MS OS to be backwards compatible with XP is a white elephant. So while the diehard XP crowd can whine all they like about Vista, the longer they leave it, the more it will cost them when Windows 14 rocks up !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
XP users are going to have to take a leap of faith sooner or later.

Without doubt, the question being will that jump be to another MS OS?


Quoting Me In Oz:
Waiting for a MS OS to be backwards compatible with XP is a white elephant.

Why? It's the same underlying code with a messload of bloat added to later versions. A less disruptive upgrade path for the majority of Windows users would have been a lot more logical approach.

Quoting Me In Oz:
So while the diehard XP crowd can whine all they like about Vista

Or they can look at alternatives to windows as realistic options if successive versions from MS do not deliver.


Quoting Me In Oz:
the longer they leave it, the more it will cost them when Windows 14 rocks up

The longer MS fail to deliver products that match market desires the less relevant successive versions of their OS will become.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Or they can look at alternatives to windows as realistic options

I don't consider this a realistic option, as you have suggested, for a cost effective and less disruptive transition.

Quoting Raindog:
The longer MS fail to deliver products that match market desires

Most would argue that the 'market' doesn't know what it desires from technology and is dictated by the megacorporations. Eg. Take a look at the evolution of mobile phones. They a barely recognisable as mobile phones anymore. And I'll bet not one 'consumer' desired a camera or accelorometer to be intergrated into his mobile phone !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
I don't consider this a realistic option

But yours isn't one of the hearts and minds MS needs to claw back.

Quoting Me In Oz:
for a cost effective and less disruptive transition.

Alternative can deliver the cost effective! and for the time being neither windows or the alternatives offer an upgrade without disruption. But when you look a little further forward breaking the disruptive upgrade cycle that MS has forced onto its consumers is becoming more and more attractive.



Quoting Me In Oz:
Most would argue that the 'market' doesn't know what it desires from technology

Only fools ignore their market's desires.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Take a look at the evolution of mobile phones.

Why we are talking about PC and desktop operating systems, we could take a look at duck hunting too which would also be irrelevant.

Potoroo (User):

Quoting Raindog:
Quoting Me In Oz:
Waiting for a MS OS to be backwards compatible with XP is a white elephant.

Why? It's the same underlying code with a messload of bloat added to later versions. A less disruptive upgrade path for the majority of Windows users would have been a lot more logical approach.


If you are suggesting Vista's core code is essentially XP+ then you are mistaken. Nearly all Vista's core code was written from scratch and the driver architectures for every major subsystem (video, audio, display, etc) are completely different to XP. Architecturally, Vista got a lot of things right even though the learning curve put driver writers under the pump. Now that MS and the OEMs have had a couple of years to learn how to make it work I see no reason in principle why W7 shouldn't successfully build on that. But I still need XP to run my games.

agami (User):

APC should put a copy of their review version of Windows 7 on the cover disk of the next issue. That way we can all give it a go and judge for ourselves ;)

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

There's a half dozen 'useful' items on this list ...... YAY !
And I just hope MS, with all it's clout' can pressure the bloody OEM's to get their drivers out fast and stable.
To this day AMD/ATI still cannot provide a stable Graphics drivers for it's Vista versions. Just check out the AMD forum for comments about their latest 8.10 drivers for 32-bit Vista. The 64-bit version is even worse.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
And I just hope MS, with all it's clout' can pressure the bloody OEM's to get their drivers out fast and stable.

Appears that pressure is diminishing. It's nor MS's place to dictate to the industry, a more co-operative approach that recognised that OEMs and other vendors need to earn a crust too would be far more productive. And a realisation that vendors can be more than a hand picked list of MS preference.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
It's nor MS's place to dictate to the industry,

When you own over 80% of the desktop market, the OEM's better play along or they will lose a fair chunk of their sales. And as YAJ has suggested, I don't see many Ubuntu worshippers shelling $400 for a graphics card to run Gimp !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
When you own over 80% of the desktop market,

OWN ???

But lets have a look at that 80%.

Isn't that 80% a decline from recent years? We don't see a decline in computer usage, so it looks like those alternatives are growing at a steady rate.


Quoting Me In Oz:
the OEM's better play along or they will lose a fair chunk of their sales.

MS better consider their marketplace and other industry players or they will continue to loose a fair chunk of their sales.


Quoting Me In Oz:
I don't see many Ubuntu worshippers shelling $400 for a graphics card to run Gimp !

Could say something about the relative efficiency of the underlying code. It may be in your interests to foster sales of overblown and generally buggy graphics cards at outrageous cost. Good business if and while you can get it. But why the hell do we need this stuff. And given that industry and commerce and even end consumers will now be under extreme pressure to deliver efficiency, there will be a definite trend towards more efficient hardware and software.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
It may be in your interests to foster sales of overblown and generally buggy graphics cards at outrageous cost

Step away from your computer as a career choice Raindog, and you'll realise a lot of people use their computers for entertainment too. While you feel that our comments do not pertain to super systems in network configs, we also would like you to understand that the single desktop used for gaming and entertainment is a HUGE part of the market driving development and technology breakthroughs.

You may deem gaming and leisure computing inconsequential, but the industry and alot of us disagree. Most of the apps/uses to which you have devoted your talents to could be served with 10 year old machines running Linux. And that's OK. But for the rest of us 'tech' whores, we love to wallow in the latest and greatest innovations.

I personally would not like to return to 386's running a slick and efficient OS like DOS 6.22 !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Step away from your computer as a career choice Raindog

Just a component part of a career and business choice.


Quoting Me In Oz:
and you'll realise a lot of people use their computers for entertainment too.

The mind boggles. :>

Quoting Me In Oz:
While you feel that our comments do not pertain to super systems in network configs

Super systems? My PCs with their undies on the outside in what I'm referring to.


Quoting Me In Oz:
we also would like you to understand that the single desktop used for gaming and entertainment is a HUGE part of the market driving development and technology breakthroughs.

Technology breakthroughs? The $400 graphics card is the technological equivalent to a chrome muffler on a Magna. A marginal performance increase for an exhorbitant cost penalty.


Quoting Me In Oz:
You may deem gaming and leisure computing inconsequential,

Thankyou for granting your blessing but I was already seeing it as inconsequental prior to the granting of any approvals.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Most of the apps/uses to which you have devoted your talents to could be served with 10 year old machines running Linux.

Some of the apps, some on embedded platforms. Curious how you assume such a detail knowledge of my endeavours.


Quoting Me In Oz:
But for the rest of us 'tech' whores, we love to wallow in the latest and greatest innovations.

You can sticker swap, and quote specs all you like, good health to you.
But don't presume this to be the extents of computing, or your choices to be the only possible ones.

Quoting Me In Oz:
I personally would not like to return to 386's running a slick and efficient OS like DOS 6.22 !

Few would, yet its sad that many of the strengths of these early offerings were to evaporate in future releases and many of the weaknesses still exist. That is hardly progress.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Technology breakthroughs? The $400 graphics card is the technological equivalent to a chrome muffler on a Magna. A marginal performance increase for an exhorbitant cost penalty.

Come on Raindog ! I have given you too much credit if you really believe that ! Just check out the development cycle and R&D that has into the production of the latest 4870 GPU. Just the numbers of transistors it has compared to the latest Intel CPU offerings should allay any doubts you have about 'chrome' mufflers on a Magna !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
should allay any doubts you have about

I have no doubts about chrome mufflers. (or GPUs for that matter) :>

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
The $400 graphics card is the technological equivalent to a chrome muffler on a Magna. A marginal performance increase for an exhorbitant cost penalty.

Marginal ?

This statement is an idictment on your vast knowledge of the gaming industry then !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Marginal ?

Yes marginal.

Quoting CBR1100XX:
This statement is an idictment on your vast knowledge

Well actually its just an explanation of a basic reality. Purchasers of chrome mufflers equally will also extol volumes to justify their spends.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
A marginal performance increase for an exhorbitant cost penalty.

80% of games and 3D CAD apps would not even load if not for a dedicated GPU !


Quoting Raindog:
Curious how you assume such a detail knowledge of my endeavours.

You're the one leaving all the clues ;)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
You're the one leaving all the clues ;)

Well come one, share your vision, show us what your 2 + 2 equals! :>

dummey (New user):

Quoting Me In Oz:
I don't see many Ubuntu worshippers shelling $400 for a graphics card to run Gimp !

*COUGH* *raises hand* There are other reasons to have a nice graphics card. Also want to point out that 400$ graphics card is a small sector anyways.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting dummey:
There are other reasons to have a nice graphics card

Agreed !

Quoting dummey:
Also want to point out that 400$ graphics card is a small sector anyways.

Not here in SE Qld.
AMD 4850 and 4870, NVidia GTX260 and GTX280 are outselling their lower end brethrens by 2:1.
No one wants a $150 card that can only run 30% of the games out there.
They would rather spend $400 to be able to run 99% of the games out there !
So they'll save the extra over another month and always gets the 'high' end GPU !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Not here in SE Qld.

A known haven for white shoes, chrome mufflers, over-priced GPU sales, UFO sightings and excess consumption of red cordial. But what of the reality for Dell, HP and the rest of the planet? :>

Quoting Me In Oz:
No one wants a $150 card that can only run 30% of the games out there.

OMG $150 for my GTX-R-5400/Turbo++MegaPixal GPU card and your telling me it wont run Maim & Bludgeon IV? Spare the humanity. :>

Quoting Me In Oz:
They would rather spend $400 to be able to run 99% of the games out there !

About the going rate for PlayStation or Nintendo. :>

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
About the going rate for PlayStation or Nintendo

Try wordprocessing, net-surfing, emailing and anything else constructive using a gamepad :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
and anything else constructive using a gamepad :)

Constructive? Weren't you talking about gaming?

The wordprocessing, browsing, analysis and almost anything else constructive will run admirably with fairly basic GPU hardware. :>

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Weren't you talking about gaming?

You don't have to diffirentiate Raindog ! Computers running Vista can do both ! ...... Hee Hee ;)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Computers running Vista can do both !

May be it can? On a good day, 13 months later when you get that elusive driver for something as exotic as an SB Audigy. The fast-tracking of Win7 says the reality that is Vista is nowhere near as functional as your blind enthusiasm would have us believe.

Or did you want to blame those evil (closet mac user) journalists too?

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
driver for something as exotic as an SB Audigy

I think that's the other guy !

Quoting Raindog:
Vista is nowhere near as functional as your blind enthusiasm would have us believe.

Don't think I ever said Vista was perfect ! But as a gaming OS, it has no peer (games compatibility and on-line play in particular) !

Quoting Raindog:
Or did you want to blame those evil (closet mac user) journalists too?

Not just them ! Mainly sick of all the bagging that happens even before the nay-sayers even use the RTM !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
But as a gaming OS, it has no peer

Or in the case of Potaroo above it has no purpose. Seems he still has to run XP to shoot his flavour of aliens.

Of course for anything with a purpose, Vista has just required more hardware for no tangible improvement. The nice thing about this article is that it offers some suggestion that MS may have learnt at least a tiny amount from the overblown flop they call Vista.

gankul (Cornerstone member):

For CAD or gaphic intensive progam (maya, 3d Studio etc) 400 dollar graphics card is relativly cheap.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Not here in SE Qld.
AMD 4850 and 4870, NVidia GTX260 and GTX280 are outselling their lower end brethrens by 2:1.


No. No they don't. You are ignoring all the thousands of PCs bought by government and businesses with simple onboard graphics. Gamers make up a tiny percentage of the market.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
You are ignoring all the thousands of PCs bought by government and businesses

You are correct Tin ! But all along I have been referring to single desktop use for gaming/entertainment. Gov and Businesses are not part of our upgrade retail strategy as they are tendered contracts going to the lowest bidders. Inevitably ending up as older technology machines running low demand apps being bought.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Gov and Businesses are not part of our upgrade retail strategy

And yet those sectors are an integral and substantial part of almost every major manufacturer and distributor.

Quoting Me In Oz:
as they are tendered contracts

That will be news to a great many businesses. I will have to ring up dozens of the companies I deal with and tell them they are doing it all wrong.

Quoting Me In Oz:
tendered contracts going to the lowest bidders.

You'd mean the lowest bid complying to or exceeding a customer determined specification.

Quoting Me In Oz:
Inevitably ending up as older technology machines running low demand apps being bought.

New again to the businesses of the land. Most major businesses will purchase based on TCO, and buy stable secure and long lived hardware.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Most major businesses will purchase based on TCO, and buy stable secure and long lived hardware.

Most businesses wouldn't know what those criteria are !
And base their purchase strategy on price and advice from people pushing their own barrows !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Most businesses wouldn't know what those criteria are !

Your observations must be based on a very limited and skewed sample of those SEQ businesses who sometimes frequent gaming shops.

Quoting Me In Oz:
And base their purchase strategy on price and advice from people pushing their own barrows !

Sounds very like the perspective of those flogging overpriced GPU cards to me.

Sadly your perspective of the functions and applications for windows 7 is based solely around the whims and fancies of the subgroup who choose the title gamers. The views and biases of this often noisy subgroup of consumers is not indicative of the entire marketplace you need to come to terms with this in order to make any kind of reasoned evaluation.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
The views and biases of this often noisy subgroup of consumers is not indicative of the entire marketplace you need to come to terms with this in order to make any kind of reasoned evaluation.

I could say the same of your subgroup !
You see Raindog, all the subgroups make up the group itself and so thus all are quite valid and relevant to the whole. So I think the understanding of which you speak of should always be a 2 way street.
I'm well aware of the requirements of business (we do sell quite alot of hardware/software to this subgroup). And don't discount SE Qld as an insignificant market. It is quite srong and promising even in these economic times.

So lets just say, you look after your specialty and we gamers will look after ours :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
I'm well aware of the requirements of business

You comments about business purchasing solely by tender suggest you may no be as in touch as you think.


Quoting Me In Oz:
And don't discount SE Qld

Why not :>


Quoting Me In Oz:
lets just say, you look after your specialty and we gamers will look after ours

No can do! At least until there is some recognition that not everyone wants, needs or desires the perpetual resources grab that successive Windows versions have become.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
At least until there is some recognition that not everyone wants, needs or desires the perpetual resources grab

Don't hold out on this recognition ! It's a consumer society.
Everyone may not want all of this 'bloat', but some do.
And, again, as for resource grab, well, on a single desktop it is a moot point with the price of hardware as cheap as it it.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

You know you can run games on Linux too, right?
I'm about to buy a ~$400 card and will probably run Debian (maybe Ubuntu, but I don't like the fanboism of Ubuntu users).

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
You know you can run games on Linux too, right?

I've yet to see a Linux rig run DX10 games and PhysX successfully. And lets not start on on-line gaming with a Linux rig ! My comments are founded on many LAN Gaming (usually 20-40 machines) sessions that we set up here in SE Qld.

Quoting Tin:
but I don't like the fanboism of Ubuntu users

Don'y let that put you off. many of the people who 'detest' MS and have cut their noses off in spite of their face have run quite a few games successfully off this distro.

My 2 cents says if you are going to spend that sort of dosh then use XP or Vista for your gaming needs. But by all means play with Linux (we are all geeks, after all). My fave distro is Mandriva :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
My comments are founded on many LAN Gaming (usually 20-40 machines) sessions that we set up here in SE Qld.

Oh the technology, 20 PC networks with 20 sub-woofers clipping away at square wave, the fun in SEQ just never stops. :>


Quoting Me In Tin:
but I don't like the fanboism of Ubuntu users

If we avoided products because of rampant slavering fanbois we'd be avoiding every build of linux, every release of mac, everything MS, and even old Ataris. Just ignore the chest beatings or give them the disdain they deserve, and select what you use based on its merits and suitability for use.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
and select what you use based on its merits and suitability for use.

That's why I chose Vista for gaming :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
That's why I chose Vista for gaming

Curious then that legions of other have had to retain XP or instigate some form of multi-boot to play their shoot-em-ups of choice.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
some form of multi-boot to play their shoot-em-ups of choice.

That is a necessity if you want to play legacy games requiring FAT32 or FAT16. Vista is the ONLY choice for new DX10 and PhysX games (think I said this already). My pc is multiboot Win98SE, XP and Vista :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
My pc is multiboot Win98SE, XP and Vista

speaks volumes re: inadequacy and incompatibility of OS software.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
inadequacy and incompatibility of OS software

I wholeheartedly agree !
But this is not all due to the developers. People like me insist on running legacy software !
Even you have to admit that NTFS is a more secure and robust file system than FAT !

But that's enough from me ! I think we've hijacked this thread long enough :-)

(APC should have a Private Messaging facility so you and I can joust until our hearts content)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
I think we've hijacked this thread long enough

Hijacking?


Quoting Me In Oz:
APC should have a Private Messaging facility so you and I can joust until our hearts content

Send me an e-mail you can get the address of your mate with the red computer he (like others) claims to know everything about my business. :>

Potoroo (User):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Quoting Raindog:
some form of multi-boot to play their shoot-em-ups of choice.

That is a necessity if you want to play legacy games requiring FAT32 or FAT16.


Nonsense. Games like CFS3 and SH3 that have been kept alive and enhanced by strong communities run on XP but won't run on Vista. FAT of any flavour is simply not a factor.

Quoting Me In Oz:
Vista is the ONLY choice for new DX10 and PhysX games

PhysX runs just fine on XP. And none of the DX10 games have yet to demonstrate why it is a killer gaming requirement.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Potoroo:
DX10 games have yet to demonstrate why it is a killer gaming requirement.

Try call of Juarez on DX9 and then DX10, and tell me there is no difference ! And there is more coming ! Far Cry 2 on DX10 is something else :)

Quoting Potoroo:
Games like CFS3 and SH3 that have been kept alive and enhanced by strong communities run on XP but won't run on Vista.

That's my point ! That's why I multiboot.

Hemma (User):

Quoting Me In Oz:
I don't see many Ubuntu worshippers shelling $400 for a graphics card to run Gimp !

Seriously, as much as I love Linux, Gimp is just not working out.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Looks all very promising :)
We'll just have to wait and see how the journos and spin doctors receive it pre-release. Hopefully some of the Vista stigmatism has dissipated and they can look it from a fresh view. The transition from Win95 to Win98 comes to mind.

Personally, I think it is Vista 2.0 ! But Hey ! I don't want the responsibility of starting this rumour ;)

Hopefully, my SB Audigy card will work with it ! (Damn you, SB)