Speculation Qantas plunge caused by wireless iPod headphones

David Braue10 October 2008, 10:50 AM

EXCLUSIVE | Noise cancelling iPod headphones reportedly forced Qantas jet into terrifying plunge, leaving passengers with spinal injuries.


Or not.

Like wine, chocolate, red meat, caffeine, and mobile phone usage, public sentiment about life's little vices varies considerably depending on the phase of the moon and the rate at which news trickles into media outlets.

One day, it's perfectly OK to wash down a nice, tender beef sirloin with a bottle of 1998 cabsauv, chocolate fondue and double espresso whilst negotiating a business deal with your supplier in Shanghai. The next, some boffin in a lab on the other side of the world, eager to make a name for himself in academia, publishes a story saying that such behaviour causes cancer, flatulence, and global warming.

Apart from a few stray issues with heat, melting batteries and flames, however, notebook computers have luckily escaped the brunt of this fair-weather optimism. They are many peoples' lifelines to the world, their unflinching companions on otherwise unendurable trans-continental flights – yet for some reason, they were mentioned during coverage of the sudden descent of Qantas flight 72 on Tuesday.

Authorities initially blamed the terrifying incident on a "malfunctioning flight control system or the auto-pilot control system", but on Thursday morning, this transmogrified into an SMH story with the headline "Speculation laptop use caused Qantas flight plunge". Interestingly, the story actually contradicted its own headline in the first paragraph, noting that "Air safety investigators say it is too early to blame passenger laptop computers for causing a Qantas jet to abruptly nose dive on a flight from Singapore to Perth." It's a wonder the SMH didn't find a way to work Sarah Palin, Obama, Paris Hilton and leaked pictures of Apple Brick notebooks into the story to drive traffic up further.

Facts hardly matter in today's global news world, though: within the hour, the notebook element had spread like wildfire: Bloomberg picked it up, as did our friends across the Tasman. The UK Daily Mail expanded the hit list by mentioning "the possibility that wireless signals from a laptop or a child's game could have interfered with the autopilot".

By the day's end, a Google search for "Qantas plunge laptop" was returning 19,800 hits and by Friday morning the number was up to 20,300.

Vladimir Lenin is credited with saying "a lie told often enough becomes truth". This adage was in full swing here, as Australia's own schadenfreude central, news.com.au, reinforced its story with a reference to an event in which "a passenger clicking a wireless mouse mid-flight recently sent a Qantas jumbo jet off course on a three-degree bank".

This event, apparently covered in Brisbane's Courier Mail in July, was taken as fact in many of the news reports of this week's incident. Yet today, even the NZ Herald was setting the facts straight, quoting an ATSB spokesman as saying "I don't know where that report came from".

Call it fearmongering, call it click-whoring, call it whatever you like, but this is just one in a long string of examples showing how eager the media is to breathlessly blame technology when things go wrong. It's the press equivalent of that famous video where the guy gets irritated because he can't get the computer to work.

Yes, I bet some passengers were using notebooks when the plane did its thing. I'll also bet that many of those notebooks ended up in smithereens after colliding with the plane's roof at high speed. But to automatically assume they caused the autopilot to go haywire? It's great to attract clicks, but is totally invented, fabricated speculation at this point. The sites could just as easily have run a story with the headline "Malicious alien gremlins link to Qantas plunge".

There has been much speculation about wireless signals interfering with plane systems – most broadly evident in the long-running ban on mobile phone use on planes. However, the past year or so has seen many airlines – including Qantas – relaxing those rules; just a few weeks ago, Qantas confirmed its soon-to-take-off Airbus A380 would include Internet services from OnAir and AeroMobile technology to support mobile phones onboard. (It has recently postponed the inflight internet plans on the A380, but not due to technological problems.)

Indeed, it seems that the worst thing about using mobile phones onboard planes is the nuisance it causes to neighbouring passengers – reason enough to keep them banned, IMHO. But when people start suggesting that even a battery-powered wireless mouse – which emits an extremely weak, low-powered signal with about a 2m radius – could affect a plane's navigation systems, well, it comes off as the stuff of urban legends.

Now, airplane security is well-known for being strict; heck, I can't even get a nail clipper onboard these days. Something in me just knows that airplane authorities have been testing this stuff; if notebooks posed a real threat to onboard systems, they would have been banned long ago. Ditto handheld gaming systems, which nowadays include wireless capabilities with a range of around 10m.

Passenger jets are built with about a dozen levels of failsafe protection in place – redundant systems are common, key systems and indeed the entire plane is designer for protection from lightning and higher levels of ambient radiation at altitude.

In fact, Boeing's Marc Birtel told APC in 2006 that the aircraft manufacturer had been telling airlines for years that use of cellphones and WiFi on planes was perfectly safe -- but government regulators, fearful of public backlash over introducing any perceived risk into air travel whatsoever, were the ones who were unprepared to give any ground.

So are we really meant to believe that a small, wireless mouse broadcasting at 900MHz or whatever in a 2m radius at a few milliwatts is enough to circumvent all these protections? Or that a speculated laptop could be emitting enough ambient RF to stuff up a plane's altimeter?

Can anyone -- especially those irresponsible journalists creating unnecessary fear about air safety -- offer up even the smallest shred of evidence that an electronic device being used by a passenger on board has had any provable effect on an airplane?

Is it time to call Mythbusters yet? Or maybe Slashdot has already covered it well enough.

The evidence around interference of electronic devices with plane systems is nearly as sketchy as the evidence supporting Creationism or the idea that light beer can taste as good as regular beer – but it gets loads of air time and clickthroughs, simply because people love a good conspiracy theory. Wargames has a lot to answer for.


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AtticusFinch (User):

Classic case of "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" !
Or we can produce a plane that is immune to EM Interference like 'Air Force One' and would only be able to carry 30 people !

10 October 2008, 11:06 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

It's only Air Force One while the US president is on board...

Or so movies tell me.

10 October 2008, 7:49 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

I am tired of all the finger-pointing that Qantas is doing these days. Come on! The aerospace engineers would have thought about this! Just sounds a little fragile that a laptop (or any electronic equipment in this case) is going to cause the plunge.

10 October 2008, 11:29 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

NF (New user):

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t your title for this article also using a sensationalist title in order to increase hits?

10 October 2008, 11:49 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dan Warne (Administrator):

I think the idea is to sucker in the same people who would have clicked on the misleading articles to give them a re-education :-) It's a bit satirical.

10 October 2008, 6:41 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Phred (Cornerstone member):

I'm a little confused where the headphones come in, or is it the intention of the author to try and change the tide of popular the misconception that the laptop caused the problem?

10 October 2008, 12:05 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Graeme (New user):

an amazingly well written article I personally thought I was going mad beacuase of the utter rubbish I refused to believe!! Just to add to it the Plane 2 days ago fell 2000m in 3 seconds or anyonw with a idea could work out that that means that it was travelling at twice the speed of sound something an A330 just cannot do! now all of a sudden the have changed it to 2 seperate fall of 100ft in total and taking well over half a minute which makes alot of difference! I am so sick of reading this hyped up rubbish and was just so relieved to read an article of news that held mostly truth about it!!!
Thanks to the author!!

10 October 2008, 1:30 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

I enjoyed reading that and David is spot on with it. There is no way in the world that any kind of interference from a mobile phone, mouse, laptop, PSP or whatever caused this incident. Considering the A330 has been in service since 1994, there are over 500 of them in operation, and only 3 have been lost (1 of those wasn't even in flight), if there was some issue with the auto pilot and wireless devices it would have shown itself by now. If it DOES turn out to be a wireless device (which is highly unlikely), they'll need to take every one of these aircraft out of service to check them. Nice O/T for engineers around the world I'm sure.

There is no way we can believe anything that is written about this because everyone says something different. I'm just going to wait until the official report comes out which I'm sure will say that the plane hit an air pocket - something which could occur to any plane not matter how well it is maintained. I see this story being driven by the unions who want to blame everything on offshore maintenance.

I despair that when BA had a major incident earlier this year (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/01/17/heathrow.incident/) there was nothing but praise for the heroics of the pilots and no negativity around BA or any of its policies. Why can't our QANTAS pilots enjoy the same?



10 October 2008, 1:36 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

Keep an eye on Ask The Pilot - http://dir.salon.com/topics/ask_the_pilot/

I'm sure he'll be able to make some sense of this - he always does

10 October 2008, 1:44 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

My theory:
They revamped the plane involved recently to save fuel costs... Part of which was a weight reduction, where they removed heaps of old fashioned copper cable running sensors and other gizmos. To save costs, they use Bluetooth links to these devices, since the electronics are readily available.
That's where the cordless mouses and headphones come in... Someone was trying to get their mouse or headphones to connect. They did a scan, and found a few devices to pair with. Not sure which one, they just started pairing with all of them, and entering the default PIN "0000".
Unfortunately, Windows XP isn't sure how to handle the FCS (Flight Control Systems) Bluetooth profile, so it guessed.

10 October 2008, 7:57 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Careful what you say there. Some journo may take that as the truth, publish it as headline news, and you might get sued for defamation.

11 October 2008, 3:11 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

itd (User):

"The evidence around interference of electronic devices with plane systems is nearly as sketchy as the evidence supporting Creationism..."

Gotta love flawed logic...
But why use an example of it when writing an article about it...

Whether you believe in “creation” or the alternate religion of "evolutionism" or you are agnostic like myself I think you would have to agree that the evidence for the theory of evolution isn’t that crash hot either and constantly changes, sometimes bordering on the absurd (much like what happens with the Qantas story).

Indeed if either model makes sense given what we can currently observe the predictions of the creationism model and the “death and suffering after the fall” fit in more with the observed mass extinction of species (even during our lifetime) and the overall increase in genetic diseases in the same period than the evolutionary model which predicts that we should have seen at least one new species evolve.

It always amazes me how people can look at a crude tool and say someone created it and yet look at something as complex as a human being and say it just happened by accident, surely the evolutionary model is also “sketchy” to a rational person.


10 October 2008, 8:20 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Why is it in century 21 we have near doubled the weight of passenger cars with all kinds of gizmos that are going to save us from ourselves, and yet aviation maintenance is now being shipped offshore for a budget service, out the back of the Mahindra factory.

The real source of the latest problem with QFwhatever is a direct result of a form of interference with a far greater range than WiFi or bluetooth.
This latest mid air incident was the direct result of board level interference.

Emissions (and omissions) from the Qantas board no less. :>

10 October 2008, 9:02 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

Quoting Raindog:
This latest mid air incident was the direct result of board level interference.

I doubt it. In reality the maintenance that is done off shore can be compared with topping up the washer tank on your car. All of the serious stuff (d-checks, engine changes) is either done at Mascot or Avalon in Victoria.

The board are looking to cut costs where they can, and the selection of Allan Joyce as the next CEO will take that further. But doing serious maintenance in foreign countries is not on their agenda.



12 October 2008, 9:17 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Wazza:
The board are looking to cut costs where they can, and the selection of Allan Joyce as the next CEO will take that further.

I rest my case!

You cannot cut costs perpetually without affecting performance, something greedy boards are yet to come to terms with!

The Mascot jet base for example is a very different operation to what it was in the 80's.


13 October 2008, 7:54 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

Quoting Raindog:
You cannot cut costs perpetually without affecting performance, something greedy boards are yet to come to terms with!

Yes maybe, but in the case of QANTAS performance will decline in terms of customer service, facilities at airports and on time departures (you only need to look at Jetstars record to see evidence of this). Any airline board who cuts cost and causes massive safety issues is committing suicide and doesn't deserve to be in their job in the first place. Geoff Dixon et. al. are too smart for that me thinks.




13 October 2008, 9:06 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Wazza:
Yes maybe, but in the case of QANTAS performance will decline in terms of customer service, facilities at airports and on time departures (you only need to look at Jetstars record to see evidence of this).

So how do we explain the recent spate of mid air incidents with Qantas flights? A coincidental recent spate of in-flight Laptop use?

Quoting Wazza:
Any airline board who cuts cost and causes massive safety issues is committing suicide

Never a truer word spoken.


Quoting Wazza:
Geoff Dixon et. al. are too smart for that me thinks.

Your confidence in Dixon & Co is admirable given, his reign has treated technicians & engineers and expendable and as an annoyance to the gaining of shareholder profits. One of Qantas's greatest assets is it's crash free record. To maintain such a record will always require some premium.
To eliminate that premium entirely will destroy that asset. If you want parity with other world carriers then parity of crash statistics will be a given.



13 October 2008, 9:24 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

Quoting Raindog:
So how do we explain the recent spate of mid air incidents with Qantas flights? A coincidental recent spate of in-flight Laptop use?

Is everyone not in agreeance that electronic devices did NOT cause this issue? A spate of incidents? I'm only aware of 3 including this one and there are a million explanations for these. It's natural that because Australia's union movement are a bunch of scare mongers we all jump to the conclusion that all of the incidents of late are down to maintenance faults.

Some points to consider before we start blaming cost cutting and overseas maintenance:
- As I have said, all major maintenance for QANTAS is completed here in Australia (I have family who work for QANTAS so have this on very good authority). It's "possible" that a maintenance shortfall led to this issue. If so, we need to look closer to home rather than blaming QANTAS' off shore maintenance policy. Offshore maintenance is also a non-argument when it comes to domestic airliners as these aircraft never leave the country
- In November 2001 (in that scary period after September 11) an American Airlines A300 took off from JFK and crashed, killing everyone on board. We all jumped to the conclusion that Osama was up to his old tricks again, but on further investigation it transpired that over zealous use of the rudder by the pilot caused the crash. The A300 had been in service for nearly 30 years at that point and there was NEVER an occurance like this, however the pilot was following standard procedure. Following this incident, Airbus updated their operations manual for all A300 aircraft. Could we not have the same scenario here? Mr. QANTAS pilot is doing what the manufacturer has told him to and suddenly, a situation that has never occurred before is encountered with drastic consequences? This is quite possible. More probable than a maintenance failure
- Air pocket? Most likely explanation in my view

Quoting Raindog:
Your confidence in Dixon & Co is admirable

Yep - they're in charge of Australia's biggest brand, and are doing a good job considering the environment that they're in (fuel costs etc.). We gotta have faith.

I ask you this - you turn up to Mascot tomorrow to hop on a flight (to wherever you want to go) and you're presented with a fork in the road. At the end of one fork is a Virgin Blue 737, and at the other end is a beautiful QANTAS 737. You have a no holds barred choice of which fork you take. Do you still have confidence to take the QANTAS fork? I know I do, and will do for a long time to come.



13 October 2008, 12:24 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Wazza:
Is everyone not in agreeance that electronic devices did NOT cause this issue?

I am 100% certain that consumer electronics transmitting or otherwise, played no part in this latest incident incident.

Quoting Wazza:
A spate of incidents? I'm only aware of 3 including this one and there are a million explanations for these.

Yes a spate, 3 incidents in a few months, (two if which seriously risking loss of the aircraft) is certainly a spate.

Quoting Wazza:
It's natural that because Australia's union movement are a bunch of scare mongers we all jump to the conclusion

As much as I do not support the stance of militant unions and am loathe to ever defend them. The can hardly be held responsible for the ludicrous claim that QF72 latest incident was the result of consumer electronics.

Quoting Wazza:
(I have family who work for QANTAS so have this on very good authority).

I have equally sound contacts from Mascot, I also have a cousin who manages an orchid which is about as relevant.


Quoting Wazza:
Could we not have the same scenario here?

Most probably, which is all the more reason to doubt the integrity of those who would suggest media smokescreens involving use of consumer electronics in-flight. It reeks of a cover up!


Quoting Wazza:
Yep - they're in charge of Australia's biggest brand, and are doing a good job considering the environment that they're in (fuel costs etc.). We gotta have faith.

No question the market place is difficult, but why do we have to have faith? 3 serious mid air incidents within a few weeks is good cause some serious questioning of any faith. I would be loathe to trust a car with a similar record and that has nowhere near as far to fall.


Quoting Wazza:
Air pocket? Most likely explanation in my view

Without question. Well without question until you start seeing spurious and far fetched media releases which scream cover up of something more sinister.


Quoting Wazza:
ask you this - you turn up to Mascot tomorrow to hop on a flight (to wherever you want to go) and you're presented with a fork in the road. At the end of one fork is a Virgin Blue 737, and at the other end is a beautiful QANTAS 737.

I have equal trust, fear, regard and suspicion of either airline to be quite candid. You did however leave Qantas re-badgeing of its poor service sector as Jetstar right out of the equation. There is a business arm with people skills and arrogance that wont ever see my dollar.



13 October 2008, 12:58 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

Quoting Raindog:
As much as I do not support the stance of militant unions and am loathe to ever defend them. The can hardly be held responsible for the ludicrous claim that QF72 latest incident was the result of consumer electronics.

They so can - and probably did

Quoting Raindog:
I have equally sound contacts from Mascot, I also have a cousin who manages an orchid which is about as relevant.

Ouch! That was a bit unnecessary wasn't it?

Quoting Raindog:
I have equal trust, fear, regard and suspicion of either airline to be quite candid. You did however leave Qantas re-badgeing of its poor service sector as Jetstar right out of the equation. There is a business arm with people skills and arrogance that wont ever see my dollar.

Done deliberately as I too wouldn't fly with One Star. I don't fancy having to disembark on a flight to Melbourne at Avalon which is closer to a sewerage farm than the city centre. I was hoping that this little annoyance would just go away. Not to be it seems.....


13 October 2008, 1:18 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Wazza:
They so can - and probably did

Either way its not a good look for Qantas

Quoting Wazza:
Ouch! That was a bit unnecessary wasn't it?

It was a valid point, please don't see it as a personal attack it was not.


Quoting Wazza:
Done deliberately as I too wouldn't fly with One Star.

Which is very much my point, Qantas a few years ago would not have services bad enough to hide under another badge.

Quoting Wazza:
I was hoping that this little annoyance would just go away.

I was thinking the same about one very arrogant, cold and calculating Mr Dixon. There is more to preserving a national icon than just maintenance of its bottom line.
Clearly you'll pay a premium for Qantas over Jetstar, a premium to maintain that crash free reputation is equally palatable.


13 October 2008, 1:43 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

Quoting Raindog:
arrogant, cold and calculating Mr Dixon

I don't know that he's cold and calculating. With the bungled sell off of QANTAS 18 months or so ago he stood to make $60mill - every cent of which he was going to donate to charity (the Alzeimers or Parkinsons fund I think from memory).

I don't think he would want to be remembered as the one who ruined our national icon so I think he is acting in the best interests of the airline. I don't have a similar view of Allan Joyce who is going to be thrust upon us in the coming months. I hope he does prove me wrong - but he has Ryanair written all over him - and that's nothing to do with the fact that he's Irish either.



13 October 2008, 1:53 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Wazza:
I don't have a similar view of Allan Joyce who is going to be thrust upon us in the coming months. I hope he does prove me wrong - but he has Ryanair written all over him

I'll judge him by his actions including those that had Jetstar passengers marooned, without accommodation, at Airports across the country after recent storms.
While I do, to some degree, agree with the sentiment of "what the Hell do you expect from a $99 ticket" this in no way removes a duty of care from the airline or a responsibility to deliver the service or compensate for non delivery.

Joyce supported/enforced actions that were the equivalent of a Sydney cabbie dropping passengers mid way down the Eastern distributor because he had forgotten his sandals.



13 October 2008, 2:43 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Kristian (User):

"Is it time to call Mythbusters yet?"
I am pretty sure Mythbusters did a segment on this already, so just look up the episode, unsuprisingly they concluded mobile phones and the like did not intefere with airplane instruments.

10 October 2008, 9:40 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

SCIO (New user):

Alas Poor Mr Dixon and his band of Privilaged Executives , Their attemnpt to engineer a very lucrative sale of the "Public Company" who pays them exceptionally well. In a package devised where they would all recieve handsome payouts (Agreed LONG Before the Approval was even sought) failed . So what do you do if your one chance to make an illegal squillion selling off someone else's property.
Simple !! Work digilantly at cutting those unnecessary and expensive safety margins by deleting the service inspections and work they may need which will affect the bottom line. You just gotta keep the profits up for your bonus's and make it look good for any new rich predator who might just offer you "30 pieces of silver" for the lives of a few expendable passengers .

Sorry to say it but I'm sick of the excuses , the bulldust and the sycophantic support this tired bunch of thieves recieve for their blatent "non achievement" awards and supportr from possible Brokers from the now sadly exposed men in black suits from the"Finance" Sector. SCIO

11 October 2008, 12:58 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

DJC (New user):

I have noted a number of times lately when the SMH use a non truth in this manner to juice up a headline (and sales)

11 October 2008, 1:19 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

DJC, the days of honest and transparent reporting in the media has long gone. You only get some who are ethical enough to do the right thing, or in this article, fight those who are doing the wrong things.

Thank the tabloids for inventing the idea.

11 October 2008, 3:09 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

daudet (New user):

Thank you for writing this. I have been telling my friends the same thing and at this stage they think that I am wrong.. it's written in the media so it is true !! (so they think) It's like the myth about the mobile phone in petrol station... even though busted by various organism (and the Mythbuster) ..we still see in No Mobile Phone sign in petrol station.

11 October 2008, 3:07 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Thomas Seaver (New user):

Mythbusters already did this one. Busted it wide open. It's complete nonsense to suggest that a laptop's RF emissions could somehow interfere with the navigation systems of a jumbo jet.

11 October 2008, 4:53 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Idyllic (New user):

Nonetheless, when the people who engineer and develop airplanes and their communication systems tell you to turn off all of your electrical devices, you better fricking do it, regardless of what the media says how little they may interfere with the aircraft.
You fools who say that there is no way any kind of interference from a mobile phone etc etc could cause this problem make up the large portion of society which, regardless of what cautions are set before them, insist that they have a right to object to every rule, guideline, caution that are set to help protect the population from harm. These are the people who cause disasters by their impotency to follow simple rules such as stopping at stop signs, abiding by the law and the simple guidelines when traveling by air.

11 October 2008, 5:13 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dan Warne (Administrator):

Except that it's not the people who design aircraft and their communication systems telling people to turn off electronic devices. It's risk averse federal regulators. The aircraft manufacturers have been saying it's not a risk.

11 October 2008, 7:02 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Dan Warne:
Except that it's not the people who design aircraft and their communication systems telling people to turn off electronic devices. It's risk averse federal regulators.

I've read and penned thousands of pages of the OH&S bollocks that bureaucrats introduced as a means of shirking their responsibilities and this poses a few questions.

If a mobile phone/play-station/notebook/healing crystal could possibly affect the avionics of a modern commercial aircraft, then where is the duty of care from "risk adverse federal regulator" who have done nothing to ensure such devices are not used during flights?

How after an adequate risk assessment by "risk adverse federal aviators" could event been allowed to continue in the manner that they have?

Are these same "risk adverse federal regulator" not guilty of neglect in not obtaining an absolute guarantee from manufacturers, that any avionics used would be 100% free from such interference?

It appears that these "risk adverse federal regulators" have not shown due diligence, have not adequately performed a risk assessment, and that they are guilty of wantant neglect of responsibility.

Cellphone my eye. Whoever suggested that to the press should be slapped about with a stack of OH&S manuals until they apologise for the insulting people's intelligence.






11 October 2008, 7:34 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

John Flaherty (New user):

David,

I think you will find that Adam and Jamie and Grant from the Mythbusters have already addressed the issue with mobile phones affecting navigational instruments in aircraft. During the 3rd season (episode 49, aired 15/3/06), they obtained navigation equipment that is found in a standard Light Aircraft, and attempted to confuse the equipment with a mobile phone with minor effects. As listed on their website;

"The ban on cell phones on aircraft is designed to force passengers to use the expensive in-flight phones". The myth was classed as busted, and the findings as follows;

"It was found that cell phone signals, specifically those in the 800-900 MHz range, did intefere with unshielded cockpit instrumentation. Because older aircraft with unshielded wiring can be affected, and because of the possible problems that may arise by having many airborne cell phones "seeing" multiple cell phone towers, the FCC (via enforcement through the FAA) still deems it best to err on the safe side and prohibit the use of cell phones while airborne".

Whilst this episode did not address the use of laptop computers and Ipods, etc, it would be a worthwhile suggestion as a point for further investigation.


11 October 2008, 5:56 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting John Flaherty (though the source is Mythbusters I think):
"It was found that cell phone signals, specifically those in the 800-900 MHz range, did intefere with unshielded cockpit instrumentation. Because older aircraft with unshielded wiring can be affected, and because of the possible problems that may arise by having many airborne cell phones "seeing" multiple cell phone towers, the FCC (via enforcement through the FAA) still deems it best to err on the safe side and prohibit the use of cell phones while airborne".


Isn't it funny how they can bust the myth but generate a new one right there. Mobile phones regularly "see" multiple cells at once in the city. That's how they move from one to another without dropping calls.
And the FAA really wouldn't care what the FCC says about potential disruption to mobile phone users (the FCC would barely care either).
Any FAA restriction would be risk based (you can't pull over and call a mechanic at 30,000 feet), and airlines would have restrictions for comfort reasons (no one likes people chatting on mobiles in trains, and planes would be worse).

11 October 2008, 7:35 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Clarence Over (New user):

I've been flying Airbus fly by wire aircraft for 17 years. I was somewhat sceptical about electronic interference until I had an incident and that was enough to convice me. I had just commenced descent when both of the navigation displays failed simultainously. Shortly after that, the Purser reported that a passenger was using a mobile phone in the first class cabin and refused to turn it off. He was seated directly above the avionics compartment. The passenger was again instructed to turn his phone off, and this time he complied. Shortly after, both nav displays returned to normal. That occurred early on in my 'electronic aircraft' experience and was the only time, but that was enough to convince me. I've also been struck by lightning in an airbus, right where the avionics compartment is. No problem with any of the aircraft systems, just some burn marks along the fuselarge. Transmitting devices should never be used by passengers on board aircraft, fullstop. It is, however, deemed extremely unlikely that non transmitting electronic gadgets can cause interference, and that's why they are allowed to be used, but at cruise altitude only. If there's a chance, however slight, of a ghost getting inside the machine, at least then the crew would have time (height) to recover. Imagine the consequences of the Qantas incident if it had occured during takeoff or on approach.

11 October 2008, 9:16 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Clarence Over:
I've been flying Airbus fly by wire aircraft for 17 years.
That occurred early on in my 'electronic aircraft' experience


You say it was early in your 17 year history and never happened again... I don't meant o sound rude, but that was a long time ago, and mobiles (or any personal radio transmitting device) were fairly new and clunky. A lot has changed since then.

11 October 2008, 10:32 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Clarence Over (New user):

Quoting Tin:
I don't meant o sound rude, but that was a long time ago, and mobiles (or any personal radio transmitting device) were fairly new and clunky. A lot has changed since then.


So now only passengers with old clunky phones should be prevented from making calls during flight? Passengers with new phones should be able to use them whenever they like? What about people driving old clunky cars? Should they be the only motorists booked for speeding? Using a mobile phone on board an aircraft whilst in flight is an offence under the Air Navigation Order, and is punishable by a fine and/or up to one year in jail.




12 October 2008, 3:03 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

In both examples (phone on plane and speeding) the crime doesn't equal the cause. Speeding has never and will never cause a crash (it's driver error in all cases). Yet our government keep telling everyone it will.

12 October 2008, 3:15 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Clarence Over (New user):

Quoting Tin:
In both examples (phone on plane and speeding) the crime doesn't equal the cause. Speeding has never and will never cause a crash (it's driver error in all cases). Yet our government keep telling everyone it will.


Speeding doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop at the end. Peter Brock was a legend behind the wheel, but even with his legendary driving abilities, he was stopped very suddenly.
I'm all for better driver education, but can the average driver be trained to be better than The King of The Mountain? Maybe, but highly impractical. Race tracks don't have speed limits, public roads do, and justifiably so.
In a perfect world, we would need no laws. Some people are stupid and we all have to pay the price.

12 October 2008, 3:42 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Clarence Over:
I'm all for better driver education, but can the average driver be trained to be better than The King of The Mountain?

Many can. Most passenger car drivers are able to drive within their own limitation and avoid collision.


Quoting Clarence Over:
Race tracks don't have speed limits, public roads do

Curious you say that, given the speed limit outside my community shopping centre is higher than the pit speed limit at Australian motor racing circuits.


Quoting Clarence Over:
In a perfect world, we would need no laws.

Equally in a perfect world we would not have some corporate apologist making fanciful suggestions of cell phones creating an aviation near miss. In a perfect world deliberate media deception just would not happen. Ours is not a perfect world.


13 October 2008, 8:05 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

spw2000 (New user):

Agree that sensationalist attempts at selling news are the most deserving of scorn. Factless stuff causes needless alarm and to call it fearmongering is being light - maybe a legal remedy - with appropriate penalties??? Remeber use of a mobile phone while filling your car (which the petrol companies said was OK many years ago)?? And maybe the world economic crisis was actually caused by those green aliens or something other than just sloppy procedures and business practices???

11 October 2008, 10:34 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Call it coincidence if you will, but Qantas has had another near miss today at around 8:30am, this time in an airport bus.
The thing is I was driving along Qantas Drive at exactly that time and I was using my cell phone on hands-free. Spooky, Eh!

14 October 2008, 11:28 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wazza (User):

hahahahaha, this is quite funny. Nice work.

14 October 2008, 4:11 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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