Why iiNet will probably lose the piracy lawsuit

Dan Warne
22 November 2008, 12:41 AM


A look at the Copyright Act suggests the movie and TV industry have an unfortunately strong case against iiNet. PLUS: Read the court documents yourself.


As you probably know by now, iiNet has been sued by a number of movie studios and Channel 7 for allowing piracy to occur on its network — specifically BitTorrent piracy of movies and TV shows.

iiNet has argued that when the movie industry made complaints about user piracy on its network, it turned that information over to police, with the presumption that police would investigate.

iiNet chief Michael Malone has said that iiNet can't just disconnect someone's phone line because the movie industry makes an allegation that a user is pirating.

And, the ISP industry argues, it is protected by "safe harbour" provisions of the copyright act — ISPs are merely common carriers of traffic and the fight is between copyright holders and users.

All of these arguments sound, on the surface, pretty rational. And, frankly, we all want to believe them. Free and easy access to TV shows and movies is something none of us want to let go of.

Many of us feel that downloading TV shows is justified by how badly our TV networks chop and change episodes, cancel series' halfway through, delay episodes for months after their original air date, and quite simply don't even show some of the best TV programs produced around the world.

The justification for downloading ripped movies is murkier, since there's almost always a legal way to purchase a movie, and there are even increasingly good options for buying them in digital formats. But there are still no online stores that sell a wide range from all studios (unless you are prepared to sign up fraudulently to a US download store), and the variety of stupid DRM schemes used by Australian movie download stores means movies you buy online can't be easily played on your computer, TV and iPod.

The trouble with the law, though, is that it isn't commonsense, and although it should be, it often isn't in line with community expectations.

The movie industry isn't making an ambit claim by suing iiNet — it appears to be on reasonably solid legal ground. Here's three key arguments in iiNet's defence, debunked:

iiNet can't disconnect someone for an unproven allegation of piracy

Apparently iiNet wasn't just being sent those random emails that the US movie studios love to send out. The Australian movie industry was couriering iiNet documents as thick as phone books on individual cases of user piracy. Each set of documents included a DVD with gigabytes of data on each user's infringement. The standard of evidence was apparently the same as what the court accepted as proof of infringement in the successful Kazaa case.

The movie industry has apparently been monitoring iiNet customers' use of BitTorrent for the past five months (which is easy, because whenever you download anything using BitTorrent, your IP address is advertised on torrent trackers for the world to see.)

Secondly, the Copyright Act makes clear that an infringement doesn’t need to be proven first in order for an ISP to be liable for allowing it to happen. The group of movie studios suing iiNet are represented by the same lawyer (Michael Williams of Gilbert+Tobin) who sued Kazaa and won, and also successfully sued Stephen Cooper and his ISP E-Talk Communications for the MP3s4free.net website.

In those lawsuits, the industry didn't have to prove the copyright infringements were taking place before it sued the providers — the court accepted evidence during the cases of the infringements.

Unfortunately for iiNet, the law is angled in favour of copyright holders, not ISPs.

iiNet is not responsible for user piracy

Unfortunately that's not the case. iiNet may have felt it was divesting itself of legal responsibility by turning over complaints from the movie industry to police, but the users' piracy and the ISP's enablement of it are two separate offences.

Although the users' piracy may be investigated as a criminal matter by the police, the Copyright Act clearly states that an ISP is also responsible for allowing copyright infringement to take place on its network.

You see, the Copyright Act no longer deals with digital piracy in vague, general terms as it once did. Since Australia signed up to the US/Australia Fair Trade Agreement, the Australian Copyright Act had a big slab of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) inserted directly into it.

Check it out. Here's the index to the Copyright Act 1968. The section that deals with ISPs being absolved of blame if users pirate stuff on their networks is under " Limitation on remedies available against carriage service providers".

There are four scenarios where ISPs could be held liable for infringing copyright in the act (even if it was all done by users). These four scenarios also allow an ISP to escape damages claims if they do certain things -- covered in the next major section of this article. The four scenarios are:)

Category A: Transmitting, routing or providing connections for pirated material.)

Category B: Caches pirated material in an automatic store at the ISP.)

Category C: Hosting pirated material provided by a user, on one of its servers or networks)

Category D: Publishing links to a site or service providing copyright material)

The movie industry says iiNet is guilty of category A and possibly B. It would be pretty hard to argue point A. iiNet (like every ISP in Australia) certainly does provide transmission and routing of pirated material.

On the second point (category B), the movie industry plans to look at whether iiNet is using a P2P caching technology it took out a patent for in 2001. In a broad sense, P2P caching technology allows ISPs to save bandwidth costs by storing files being traded over P2P networks so other users downloading them can suck the data from local ISP servers rather than the wider Internet. iiNet rather unwisely trumpets its P2P caching technology in its company history (below). However, the movie industry may not get much joy here -- a post on Whirlpool suggests iiNet's peer caching technology was a very rudimentary technology for older P2P networks like eDonkey and isn't currently in use


iiNet is covered by "safe harbour" provisions

iiNet and other ISPs say even if piracy is occurring on their networks, they can't be held responsible anyway, because, legally, the Copyright Act gives them a "safe harbour" — they are simply common carriage providers, just like how Telstra can't be held responsible for someone picking up the phone and making a bomb threat.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case at all. The basic principle of the safe harbour provisions is that an ISP may avoid being hit with massive penalties in a lawsuit if it can demonstrate that it has done everything it can to stop the infringement. The Copyright Act specifies what an ISP must do — and handing over the problem to the police isn't one of them.

The Copyright Act sets out the conditions that must be met for a court to reduce the penalties on an ISP. Some of them include:

  1. An ISP has to have a policy that it will terminate the account of repeat copyright infringers. And it must execute on this policy and actually terminate users who pirate stuff.
  2. The ISP has to remove or disable access to pirated material once it becomes aware the material is infringing.
  3. The ISP may not benefit financially from piracy.

iiNet doesn't fare too well on these conditions. It has stated that although it has a policy of not condoning piracy, it can't just disconnect users' services if someone alleges they are doing it. The problem with this argument is twofold: first, the Copyright Act says they must both have a policy of disconnecting users, and act on it. Secondly, if piracy is happening, ISPs have to act on it when they're made aware of it, otherwise they can still be held liable for it if the piracy is proven in court later. Put simply, waiting for a court order doesn't help protect them legally.

On point two, if iiNet uses the P2P caching technology (which, as discussed above, looks unlikely) it is unlikely to be a giant store of Linux ISOs. The movie industry will presumably be looking for a legal avenue to take a close look at what exactly iiNet is caching locally, with the aim of proving iiNet stores a large amount of pirated stuff in its local P2P cache for download by users.

On point three, the movie industry no doubt plans to argue that iiNet benefits financially from piracy in the form of ongoing higher monthly subscription fees from users who need larger download allowances to support their online piracy. (iiNet has also made public statements about the proportion of its traffic that is P2P — and the movie industry will use those statements in evidence that iiNet users' appetite for traffic is driven by piracy). And, as a double whammy, iiNet states in its company history that its use of P2P caching technology allows it to reduce its upstream bandwidth costs down by caching P2P traffic locally. That's another profit generator which the movie industry will argue is related to piracy.

Whichever way you look at it, iiNet's legal footing doesn't look great. And note — none of the above is APC endorsing the movie industry's case. We're as frustrated as anyone by the movie and TV industry being dragged into the digital era kicking and screaming. But as this battle will have wide-reaching implications for all ISPs in Australia, understanding the legal facts, rather than conjecture and opinion will make or break online freedom.  

UPDATE: All of the legal points discussed above, are, of course, subject to interpretation by the courts. Precedents created in the Cooper/E-Talk and Kazaa cases may be deemed by a court not relevant to this case. The entire case may come crumbling down for AFACT if a court feels it is stretching the principles of the Copyright Act. University of Queensland Law Lecturer Kimberlee Weatherall has looked at the potential weaknesses of the AFACT/iiNet case. It's strongly recommended reading. The case against iiNet

View the court documents yourself


The statement of claim against iiNet (812KB PDF)


The notice of filing and hearing (816KB PDF)


Post your comment



First 50 Comments

View All Comments (73) RSS feed Email alert

Raindog (User):

The links are missing Dan.

In any case this is a call to arms. I'm neither an iiNet subscriber nor a fan of P2P but put simply enough is enough.

If Hollywood has telephone books worth of evidence on individuals then let them pursue those individuals.This whole copyright area requires a major overhaul.

CH-7 are now marketing a box to record an time shift TV programs while technically this is still very much illegal. The whole scenario i confusing irrational and grossly unfair. if studios want to take the fight past those who draw income from illegal copying and try to seek out individuals, then let the games begin.

22 November 2008, 1:09 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dan Warne (Regular user):

Thanks Raindog... all links are fixed now.

22 November 2008, 1:47 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

MtnBiker (New user):

Quoting Raindog:
CH-7 are now marketing a box to record an time shift TV programs while technically this is still very much illegal.

In fact, recording TV shows, is no longer illegal. That was one of the few positive changes made when we changed these laws. See http://apcmag.com/australian_govt_enacts_bizarre_copyright_law.htm

22 November 2008, 4:07 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

GerardoT (New user):

so if I understand correctly, We as users are at fault for downloading illegal stuff, iinet is at fault for routing the illegal stuff, telstra is at fault for letting the same illegal stuff unfiltered throught to iine, the australian goverment for not ensuring the same illegal software is unfiltered into the country, the company responsible for overseas transmissions is also guilty for distributing the software to al countries around the world without filtering, and to make the list short, all ISP, All governments and specially the same suing studios for producing again and again shows in a format that for a long long time has been known of copyrights breaches and the only solution is to sue the world for their own mistakes. Who's fault is it then?

29 November 2008, 12:58 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

n1ck0 (New user):

"lets" say im with iinet and i have been downloading axxo, fxg, movies etc, does this mean my ip is in sum movie studios list of piracy suspects.
thx

22 November 2008, 1:19 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dan Warne (Regular user):

quite possibly -- though the industry says it is not interested in pursuing individuals at this stage.

22 November 2008, 1:55 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Edwardo (New user):

yes their saying that, because phase 2 of the kazza case where the industry actively pursuded the individual got over turned based on privacy laws

26 November 2008, 11:27 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Jesse Sutton (New user):

Ah, the fear sets in! I'm no expert, but i would imagine iiNet users would still be covered by existing laws that protect their privacy. And unless that changes with a retrospective element to it, you're probably safe. My guess is this lash out at iiNet is probably not just an attack on iiNet's policies, but a scare tactic against its user. But again, i'm no expert.

Great article though!

22 November 2008, 1:36 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Samster (New user):

Of course the Privacy Act contains an exception that allows disclosure in obedience to a court order. If the studios can show a court that it has rights against unknown persons, and iiNet can identify them, there would be no problem getting an order for disclosure.

22 November 2008, 7:27 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

yedrellow (New user):

2 words:

Privacy law.

By complying with their non-court ordered sanctions, they would have been in breach of privacy laws and sued for that too. They are simply not allowed to turn over the information wanted by the media companies.

They do not have the capacity to distinguish pirated content from non-pirated content



If you want to read it for yourself;

Telecommunications act of 1997, Part 13.

22 November 2008, 1:59 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

GoodOldGraham (New user):

If you look at it in terms of a marketing exercise - which is really what this is - this is really driven by the idea that they will combat the problem by scaring the users off it. I wonder how many iinet customers are now bittorrenting? I'd say very few! So it works, regardless of whether the case holds out. And they won't pursue individuals, because that's terrible PR for those companies when they are screwing with the lives of ordinary people. It wouldn't surprise me if the case does work and the restrictions set in - there's no denying that this would be their ideal outcome - but even if it fails, their outcome has been achieved, because everyone is freaking out and now knows that their internet activity is not private (like most people foolishly believe). Even if they lose, we will know that this could happen at any time again in the future and that at any minute what we're doing may be recorded for future lawsuits.

22 November 2008, 3:53 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Fatang (New user):

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in a court of law??

22 November 2008, 7:49 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

McBanjo (New user):

In civil law proceedings with monetary claims for damages it's on the balance of probabilities, no absolute proof is necessary. And they wouldn't be found 'guilty' as such, they would just win or loose.

23 November 2008, 2:27 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mark_QLD (New user):

I wonder how this pertains to USENET. IT stores binaries for illegal material. And some ISP's have a service that caches the data, GIGANEWS feed. One would assume that the ISP would be even more accountable given all the augments above.

22 November 2008, 8:37 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

NetR@nger (New user):

This is where its all starting to change,once you could surf the net to your hearts content and feel fairly safe that no one was watching you,what they are trying to do is make you accountable for every page that arrives on your computer.The internet used to be great but thats slowly getting turned around on all of us.Personally,no one goes near my computer without me being there,because as we are starting to find out,others ARE watching what you are downloading.Dark times lay ahead...

22 November 2008, 9:15 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

The Big Baboo (User):

Why the fergen hell I would want to waste time and bandwidth downloading any of the current crop of TV crap is beyond me. And as far as movies go I much rather prefer to go to the shop and hire/buy a DVD which I can watch on my big screen LCD rather than a small 17"-19" monitor

22 November 2008, 9:47 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Rimalard (New user):

Good article and a reasonable discussion on the law, however, you have not covered the effect of 112E(Movies) and 39B(picture, audio etc) of the Act. These sections clarify the authorisation provisions of the Act. Thus iinet needs to be actually considered to be a direct infringer. 112E states that 'a person ... who provides facilities for making ... a communication is not taken to have authorised any infringement ... merely because another person uses the facilities ...' Thus AFACT needs to step over the fairly clear constraint of s112E to be successful. s112E largely absolves iinet of responsibility for the action at para 65-67 of the statement of claim. The safe harbor really only deals with the remedies should the court find against an isp. This will be an interesting case and will largely test how deep the pockets are at iinet.

22 November 2008, 11:12 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Samster (New user):

Quoting Rimalard:
s112E largely absolves iinet of responsibility for the action at para 65-67 of the statement of claim.

Umm 'largely absolves' is not meaningful. The section either entirely excuses behaviour, or excuses it not at all. There's no room for partial operation.

The problem for iiNet is that the cases suggest that a relatively slight amount of knowledge about infringement by third parties is often sufficient to eliminate the operation of the section.


22 November 2008, 8:14 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Rimalard (New user):

Umm, the use of the term largely absolves was intended to highlight that there are other issues to be considered. For example, COOPER v UNIVERSAL MUSIC AUSTRALIA PTY LTD (ACN 000 158 592) and Others (NSD 61 of 2006) - (2006) 237 ALR 714 where the knowledge issue you raised was considered. However, it could be said that a financial agreement existed in that case that may distinguish that outcome. UNIVERSAL MUSIC AUSTRALIA PTY LTD and Others v SHARMAN LICENSE HOLDINGS LTD and Others - (2005) 65 IPR 289 once again shows that there needs to be some degree of financial gain on the part of the ISP to overcome the s112E protection. So the term largely absolves is correct because as you quite rightly point out the section can be defeated by other factors; however, I would suggest the cases tend towards clear financial benefit rather than slight knowledge. As I have said this will be interesting.


22 November 2008, 10:08 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Samster (New user):

Quoting Rimalard:
I would suggest the cases tend towards clear financial benefit rather than slight knowledge.

Apparently the applicants have worked hard to make sure iiNet's knowledge was far from slight. I understand that in some cases they supplied iiNet with enough evidence to institute and win proceedings. Their argument will be that iiNet had more knowledge than you could poke a writ at.

A financial arrangement is not necessary. It's a powerful factor if it exists, but as Moorhouse shows, it's not essential.

Actually, iiNet's customers are doing their darndest on Whirlpool to bolster the argument for an economic benefit. Many are shouting how proud they are of iiNet for sticking it up the distributors and how they'll be ever more loyal iiNet customers because of it.



23 November 2008, 12:04 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

$teeve Pink (New user):

Do people watch TV?

Why would they punish themselves in such a cruel way?

Surely this is a type of cruel and unusual torture.

Usenet has the answer for torrents.

256-bit SSL Encrypted Usenet.

256-bit SSL Encrypted torrents?

Let THEM stop that!!!

22 November 2008, 4:45 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Regular user):

Encryption wouldn't stop the problem with Torrents. Your IP is still sitting in a tracker somewhere.

22 November 2008, 5:01 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Regular user):

I wonder if this AFACT group realise just how full the can of worms they are opening is... Like the attempt to sue Whirlpool a while back, if this goes through to court, it will have a massive impact on Australian internet use.

Edit: Also, the group doing the suing has a name that doesn't even make sense... You can't steal copyright...

22 November 2008, 5:07 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

root (New user):

I do not agree. Simple. If iinet as they have stated on the record, follow their legal obligations, then i see no reason why they should loose.

I would also like to suggest that The film industries wake up. It is 2008, almost 2009. If they don't provide services that people want well they seem to be going elsewhere. The fact is that 20th century media exploitation tactics will and do not work in the 21st century. The only criminals are those who profit out of piracy... The police have said this before. I am also awaiting the announcement of the film industry suing various police forces in australia who have admitted that files were downloaded on their networks (and found).

I suggest people LEGALLY download steal this movie and steal this movie two. They are rather interesting on this topic.

I think the film industries picked the wrong target. Legal cases like these will only up the battle between downloaders and copyright enforcers. The next step is end to end layer encryption.



22 November 2008, 5:25 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

root (New user):

I do not agree. Simple. If iinet as they have stated on the record, follow their legal obligations, then i see no reason why they should loose.

I would also like to suggest that The film industries wake up. It is 2008, almost 2009. If they don't provide services that people want well they seem to be going elsewhere. The fact is that 20th century media exploitation tactics will and do not work in the 21st century. The only criminals are those who profit out of piracy.... The police have said this before. I am also awaiting the announcement of the film industry suing various police forces in australia who have admitted that files were downloaded on their networks (and found).

I suggest people LEGALLY download steal this movie and steal this movie two. They are rather interesting on this topic.

I think the film industries picked the wrong target. Legal cases like these will only up the battle between downloaders and copyright enforcers. The next step is sexy hard pure unadulterated end to end encryption.

22 November 2008, 5:25 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Masic (New user):

1. The user's computer is not part of the ISP's network.
2. Every single moment there is no *full* copyrighted data available in the ISP's network.
How ISP can be responsible for the user's actions?

22 November 2008, 6:54 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Samster (New user):

Good analysis on the whole. There's some confusion of the legal concepts e.g. an ISP cannot be 'liable' under anything in the Safe Harbour rules. They create no liability independant of any that may or may not arise under section 36 of the Copyright Act. What they do is create potential exceptions to liability for damages, which either are or are not available to an ISP found in breach of section 36.

I think iiNet will live to regret the legal tactic of forwarding complaints to the police but not customers. The cases on copyright authorisation include within the ambit of authorisation creating an impression in the minds of infringers that what they are doing is OK by you. The reason for not sending notices on to users seems to have been to keep them happy. Legally, this is very close to previous grounds that have been held to constitute authorisation.

22 November 2008, 7:45 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

kharah (New user):

The problem for the 'industry' is not the p2p, but rather the low quality movies/songs/programs the 'industry' produces.

People will definitely pay for good/high quality entertainment and not the current rubbish.

22 November 2008, 7:49 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Masic (New user):

...and for the fair price...

22 November 2008, 8:22 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Unnecessary Login (New user):

I think you mean "Australia-United States Free Trade Agreement" rather than "free trade" agreement. Regardless, when it comes to matters related to copyright, it is neither free nor fair.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/negotiations/us_fta/final-text/index.html

22 November 2008, 8:18 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Phord (New user):

If you tune into a radio station, you are effectively connecting to them. Although royalties are paid to play and transmit the music, they are sharing copyright material. Do radio stations therefore fall into the same category, as they are sharing copyright material if listeners record the material. These days with digital radio, the quality is exceptional. We also have the option of using the internet to liten to our favorite radio stations, does that also mean that if a listener connected to "X" network and copies the material being transmitted, is the carriage provider therefore responsible for the sharing of that copyright material?

22 November 2008, 8:51 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

me9257 (New user):

Why stop with suing ISPs? I think we should ban all types of monitors, tvs, projectors etc as these are all technologies through which piracy is done through, doing so would solve the problem. Film studios should not be allowed computers or dvd burners these technologies can be used to produce illegal things.

Despite the numerous claims that film studios are losing money due to privacy you have to remember the fact that they are making a return of about double what they spent on making the film.

Additionally not enough statistics have been gathered on this area. For example if you have a friend who has watched a movie without paying for it and recommends the movie to you. You pay to watch the film (and the makers of the film get more income). Now if the person had never recommended the film you would not have watched it. It may be that studios actually make more money with some people watching the films without paying than if they decide to sue everyone.

23 November 2008, 12:12 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Greg Byrne (New user):

The concept of copyright is dubious at best. We all copy DVDs that we hire from a video shop. In theory that is a criminal act but nobody bothers about it. People take the view that if they own a computer they can do what they like with it in this business and I would agree with that and if there were a poll on it most people would agree with it.

23 November 2008, 1:23 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

perth_chap22 (New user):

"Hollywood has telephone books worth of evidence" - well that is the problem, this is possible evidence. Infringement notices have been sent to 70 year old pensioners for downloading Call of Duty - that wasn't true also infingement notices have been sent to remote printers! This evidence is not solid - the reason, many - trackers insert random IP addresses to protect peoples privacy, hackers can run proxys on peoples PCs, also unsecure wireless networks are just a few..

23 November 2008, 1:38 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

mrx0000001 (New user):

How devastating that the whining greedy money grubbing studio's are having a go at Iinet.

Does someone need a new gold plated shark tank?

I guess when they are only making sums of money such as the following cases :

Titanic (1997) $600,779,824
2. The Dark Knight (2008) $529,143,070
3. Star Wars (1977) $460,935,665
4. Shrek 2 (2004) $436,471,036
5. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial (1982) $434,949,459
6. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999) $431,065,444
7. Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (2006) $423,032,628
8. Spider-Man (2002) $403,706,375
9. Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (2005) $380,262,555
10. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) $377,019,252
11. Spider-Man 2 (2004) $373,377,893
12. The Passion of the Christ (2004) $370,270,943
13. Jurassic Park (1993) $356,784,000
14. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) $340,478,898
15. Finding Nemo (2003) $339,714,367
16. Spider-Man 3 (2007) $336,530,303
17. Forrest Gump (1994) $329,691,196
18. The Lion King (1994) $328,423,001
19. Shrek the Third (2007) $320,706,665
20. Transformers (2007) $318,759,914
21. Iron Man (2008) $318,298,180
22. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001) $317,557,891
23. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008) $317,011,114
24. The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001) $313,837,577
25. Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (2002) $310,675,583
26. Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (2007) $309,404,152
27. Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983) $309,125,409
28. Independence Day (1996) $306,124,059
29. Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003) $305,388,685
30. The Sixth Sense (1999) $293,501,675
31. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (2007) $292,000,866
32. The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (2005) $291,709,845
33. Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) $290,158,751
34. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005) $289,994,397
35. Home Alone (1990) $285,761,243
36. The Matrix Reloaded (2003) $281,492,479
37. Meet the Fockers (2004) $279,167,575
38. Shrek (2001) $267,652,016
39. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (2002) $261,970,615
40. The Incredibles (2004) $261,437,578
41. How the Grinch Stole Christmas (2000) $260,031,035
42. Jaws (1975) $260,000,000
43. I Am Legend (2007) $256,386,216
44. Monsters, Inc. (2001) $255,870,172
45. Batman (1989) $251,188,924
46. Night at the Museum (2006) $250,863,268
47. Men in Black (1997) $250,147,615
48. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (2004) $249,358,727
49. Toy Story 2 (1999) $245,823,397
50. Cars (2006) $244,052,771

The reality being that the percentage of computer users that actually know how to utilise P2P technology is really quite tiny.

I guess we should all feel sorry for the poor movie makers.
And of course the legal fraternity having yet another day in the sun raking in the bux.....

So given the above figures, does this mean that if the P2P issues continue will the movie studios give up the money that they are already making hand over fist, or simply is this just a matter of "Show me the money" Lots of money and they all want more.

Greed is good, Oh yeah have a look at the world, I beg to differ...






23 November 2008, 12:01 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Argus Tuffed (New user):

Between Rudd, Conroy and the Movie studios we'll soon only be able to connect online to the ABC parliamentary broadcasts.
That way Rudd gets his face on e-TV as well. lol.
The Movie studios could do a lot worse than to give all their marketing to someone like Steve Jobs, at least they'd receive some revenue and wouldn't have to acquire modern day marketing skills which they currently seem to lack.

23 November 2008, 1:02 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

amused001 (New user):

Why people worry about all this is laughable. It is, as some here have said pure greed on the studios and software makers. They have lost sight of reality and because they can charge whatever with no regulation they do. They dish up crap by the bucket loads in all fields and expect us to pay for it with no recourse for us to get a refund.

A warning to the greedy ones... Some day you will pay the ferryman, so smile when he asks for his fee and remember you were greedy and stupid and got what you deserved. Hope like heck I am around to see it. To those that think these companies are too big... one word... Enron

23 November 2008, 2:45 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Wen (New user):

Dan, with respect, I disagree with substantial parts of your analysis. In particular, I believe four of your main points are incorrect:

(1) "Secondly, the Copyright Act makes clear that an infringement doesn’t need to be proven first in order for an ISP to be liable for allowing it to happen." -- Perhaps I can refer you to WEA International v Hanimex Corporation [1987] FCA 379, [55]-[56] (Gummow J).

(2) "There are four scenarios where ISPs could be held liable for infringing copyright in the act (even if it was all done by users). These four scenarios also allow an ISP to escape damages claims if they do certain things." -- Actually, the relevant infringement sections are, as with primary copyright infringement, sections 36 and 101. The four categories in Part V, Division 2AA, to which you refer, is a limitation of remedies division *only*. It does not deal with the question of infringement: section 116AA(2).

(3) "An ISP has to have a policy that it will terminate the account of repeat copyright infringers. And it must execute on this policy and actually terminate users who pirate stuff." - Actually, the wording of Condition 1, Item 1 in s116AH(1) is "The carriage service provider must adopt and reasonably implement a policy that provides for termination, in appropriate circumstances, of the accounts of repeat infringers." This is different from actual termination based on allegations. 'Reasonable implementation' and 'appropriate circumstances' are still untested in Australian case law.

(4) "Secondly, if piracy is happening, ISPs have to act on it when they're made aware of it, otherwise they can still be held liable for it if the piracy is proven in court later. Put simply, waiting for a court order doesn't help protect them legally... The ISP may not benefit financially from piracy." -- These are only relevant for Categories C (Conditions 1, 2 & 2A, Item 4) and D (Conditions 1, 2 & 2A, Item 5). There are no such conditions for normal internet transmissions (a Category A activity). As you have noted, Category C activities are storage on provider's network at the direction of the user (eg, BBS forums, free webspace) and Category D activities are "information location tools or technology" (eg, hyperlinks, indexes and search tools).

As a publication, you should've had an IP lawyer check over this. Now it just looks like your piece is part of the layperson's "conjecture and opinion" that you denounce.

23 November 2008, 4:53 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dan Warne (Regular user):

Thanks Wen, appreciate the comments.

24 November 2008, 11:19 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

whatever (New user):

1. So the assumptions if I get a plan that give me large "caps" on downloads it can only be for illegal reasons
2. BitTorrent is used only for illegal use.

Why don't these poor starving multi-millionaires not just create a internet service where you can purchase a "right" to have a copy of a movie, no matter how you get it. that way you don't have to pay for DVD's retail etc. and legally download from pirate sites. They will still make money, and you won't be too much poorer.


Something like the way you buy music online.


23 November 2008, 8:20 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

The Penguin (User):

Quoting whatever:

Something like the way you buy music online.


iTunes does do movies and TV shows as well as music

23 November 2008, 10:59 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

me9257 (New user):

Roadshow films is suing iinet (who have been promoting their films since 2005 - see the end of my post)

Some information about Roadshow films PTY LTD (who launched the case).

Village Roadshow Films (a sub-divsions of Roadshow films) merged with with Concord Music Group (Concord) in September 2007

According to a press release (http://www.villageroadshow.com.au/press_releases/pdf/VREG%20film%20&%20music%20030907.pdf)

"The venture is well placed in the burgeoning digital environment to develop new subscription models and exploit its music assets,” said Mr Burke. “And with its focus on “timeless” music, we believe Concord is less exposed to digital piracy than the major labels.” "
- Clearly they are trying to "exploit their assets"


iiNet has endorsed paying for music and movies, by enabling usage free access to an online movie site and iTunes. iiNet also allows its users to use ABC's iview to watch programs online without using usage.

Ironically iiNet even advertised for Roadshow Films (the main company trying to sue them) many times in the iiNet newsletter

If you have a look at just about ANY of the monthly iiNet newsletters you will find a nice reference to Roadshow films.
2008 September - http://www.iinet.net.au/about/news/news_0908.html
2008 May - http://www.ozemail.com.au/about/news/news_0508.html
2008 April - http://www.iinet.net.au/about/news/news_0408.html
2007 January http://www.iinet.net.au/about/news/news_0107.html
2006 July - http://www.iinet.net.au/about/news/news_0706.html
2003 August - http://archive.iinet.net.au/newsletters/august2003.html
(the other newsletters have been left out as the full list would include almost every newsletter iinet has published.

Roadshow films has used iinet to promote its films by giving out free passes which iiNet distributes to users[as form of advertising so that the films would be recommend by the people who watch them for free] and get positive advertising in the newsletter (receiving comments such as "Our friends at Village Roadshow are giving iiNet customers the opportunity to win one of 25 double in season passes").

As I said in a previous post film distributors acknowledge that they can make money by word of mouth advertising, even if this means that one person watches their film for free. Clearly roadshow films acknowledged this by handing out free passes EVERY MONTH.

24 November 2008, 12:29 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Xiaowei1 (New user):

Dan, you really should have had an IP lawyer look though your work; even any first year law student could pick this up and point out many inconstancies. This is a desperate attempt to not go after the users of the ISP, but the ISP itself.

Kazaa was a dedicated piece of software for downloading Peer to Peer (which for a period at least condoned piracy), and MP3s4free.net was a website specifically set up to distribute pirated music (there was no other purpose, which was noted in the judgment). Both cases are very different from IInet whose main business has nothing to do with distribution of pirated material, nor do they actively condone it.

As for the points on responsibilities:
1. An ISP has to have a policy that it will terminate the account of repeat copyright infringers. And it must execute on this policy and actually terminate users who pirate stuff.
Exactly where is the “repeat copyright infringement” notice as handed down by a court? Or do companies now have legal standing to pass summary judgment now days? The companies don’t have court orders showing there has been a breach, so there is literally nothing to act on. IInet have present material to the police who can proceed with prosecution if need be in order to continue with getting such court orders. Clear a policy has been followed correctly.
2. The ISP has to remove or disable access to pirated material once it becomes aware the material is infringing.
It has also yet to be shown IInet have stored pirated material on their servers (though you have pointed this out).
3. The ISP may not benefit financially from piracy.
it has yet to be shown as from point 1 if infringement actually exists as shown in a court, at which time it is assured IInet will act so as to not “profit” from such activity.
The floodgate from any successful attempt against IInet are just too big for the courts to actively “stretch” the meaning of the words in the Copyright Act; Every single commercial ISP would go down. The act is meant to protect ISP’s, not bring them down.
Until the companies suing take any action against the people infringing their rights, they have less than half a leg to stand on.





24 November 2008, 9:26 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Xiaowei1 (New user):

Dan, you really should have had an IP lawyer look though your work; even any first year law student could pick this up and point out many inconstancies. This is a desperate attempt to not go after the users of the ISP, but the ISP itself.

Kazaa was a dedicated piece of software for downloading Peer to Peer (which for a period at least condoned piracy), and MP3s4free.net was a website specifically set up to distribute pirated music (there was no other purpose, which was noted in the judgment). Both cases are very different from IInet whose main business has nothing to do with distribution of pirated material, nor do they actively condone it.

As for the points on responsibilities:
1. An ISP has to have a policy that it will terminate the account of repeat copyright infringers. And it must execute on this policy and actually terminate users who pirate stuff.
Exactly where is the “repeat copyright infringement” notice as handed down by a court? Or do companies now have legal standing to pass summary judgment now days? The companies don’t have court orders showing there has been a breach, so there is literally nothing to act on. IInet have present material to the police who can proceed with prosecution if need be in order to continue with getting such court orders. Clear a policy has been followed correctly.
2. The ISP has to remove or disable access to pirated material once it becomes aware the material is infringing.
It has also yet to be shown IInet have stored pirated material on their servers (though you have pointed this out).
3. The ISP may not benefit financially from piracy.
it has yet to be shown as from point 1 if infringement actually exists as shown in a court, at which time it is assured IInet will act so as to not “profit” from such activity.
The floodgate from any successful attempt against IInet are just too big for the courts to actively “stretch” the meaning of the words in the Copyright Act; Every single commercial ISP would go down. The act is meant to protect ISP’s, not bring them down.
Until the companies suing take any action against the people infringing their rights, they have less than half a leg to stand on.





24 November 2008, 9:26 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Mint9839393 (New user):

Claim:
iiNet chief Michael Malone has said that iiNet can't just disconnect someone's phone line because the movie industry makes an allegation that a user is pirating.

Response:
iiNet can't disconnect someone for an unproven allegation of piracy

Completely not addressed:
Not internet connection, ===phone line===

For all the people using iiNet's Naked service (like me) the only phone line they have is a VOIP one, and disconnecting them is the same as removing their phone line, preventing the from even making triple-0 emergency calls.

It's actually a fairly major issue.

24 November 2008, 9:42 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Dan Warne (Regular user):

Well, not really... if people choose to get their telephony via IP, then if they get their IP disconnected, they lose their telephony -- but IP telephony is never marketed as an 'essential' service.

Anyway, an ISP could pretty easily turn off all internet traffic other than HTTP and VoIP to an end-user.

24 November 2008, 11:22 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

MirrorImage (New user):

Interesting that a lot of people on here are going on about the movie studios being greedy and wanting it all. Have a look at your own comments!

You all want something for nothing and you don't care that it is illegal. No one seems to be arguing that downloading TV shows and movies isn't illegal, more that you should be allowed to do it with no consequences.

It is because of this type of use of the Internet that this monitoring is now taking place.

You've made your own beds, learn to lie in them.

24 November 2008, 11:09 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Edwardo (New user):

with that logic, sue australia post for passing on bombs.

27 November 2008, 10:31 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

caeos (New user):

If you don't believe that copying not approved by the publisher is just like kidnapping and murder, you might prefer not to use the word “piracy” to describe it.

It is called copyright infringement, piracy is what is done on the high seas.

24 November 2008, 11:43 AM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

dash (New user):

IF iinet loses this lawsuit, then this will set a precident. This means every provider whos network allows this use (which is downloading... and lets admit, which provider blocks this behaviour) will be a target. Laws will be inroduced to allow government agencies to keep tabs on the providers and If you understand progression then you know that it is only a matter of time until anything we do on the internet is monitored.

24 November 2008, 12:21 PM (3 years ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

View all comments (73)  

anonymous user Anonymous user