Windows 7 won't break ties with Vista, goes public in November

Angus Kidman19 September 2008, 7:27 PM

Microsoft's plans for Windows 7 remain ambitious, with 100% backward compatibility for Vista applications one of the features it hopes to have ready for public display in November.


In the latest post on the company's Engineering Windows 7 blog , Windows 7 senior engineering manager Steven Sinofsky confirms that maintaining compatibility with Vista applications is high on the Windows 7 to-do list.

"We want to make sure that programs that run on Windows Vista continue to run on Windows 7," Sinofsky wrote. "That's a commitment we have made from the start of the project. As we all know this is perhaps the most critical aspect of delivering a new operating system in terms of compatibility."

Sinofsky also obliquely acknowledged that this goal wasn't achieved in the transition from Windows XP, despite Vista having Microsoft's largest ever beta testing program. "Sometimes we don't do everything we can do and each release we look at how we can test and verify a broader set of software before we release. Beta tests help for sure but lack the systematic rigor we require."

The lukewarm reaction to Vista in the marketplace has led to widespread speculation that Windows 7 would adopt a radically cut-down architecture and try to ditch some of its heritage ties. While the interface may well prove to be different, and some of that compatibility could conceivably be delivered through virtual machines, Sinofsky's comments reinforce that Microsoft isn't ready to cut the Vista apron strings just yet.

Elsewhere in the entry he explicitly rejects the notion of a cut-down Windows architecture: "Some have said that an ecosystem is not the best approach -- that we could do a much better job for customers if we reduce the "surface area" of Windows and support fewer devices, fewer PCs, fewer applications, and less of Windows’ past or legacy. Judging by the variety of views we've seen I think folks desire a lot of choice . . . in reality such a view would result in a radical and ever-shrinking reduction in the choices available for consumers."

Maintaining that compatibility will have to be balanced with another goal for Windows 7: shifting more users from current 32-bit platforms to 64-bit releases. "We've been very clear about our view that 64-bit is a place for developers to spend their energy as that is a transition well underway and a place where we are clearly focused," Sinofsky said.

The blog also confirmed the widely held suspicion that many key Windows 7 technologies and features will be shown off at WinHEC, Microsoft's annual hardware engineering conference, which is being held in Los Angeles in November.

"At WinHEC we have a chance to show the advances in Windows 7 around devices and the hardware ecosystem," Sinofsky wrote. (APC will be attending WinHEC and offering coverage of all the major news from that event.)

Sinofsky dropped a hint that Microsoft might encourage PC vendors to include less 'crapware' on machines that come with Vista pre-installed, writing of discussions with manufacturers. "Together we have been sharing views on ways to provide differentiated  PC experiences, customer feedback on pre-loaded software, and partnering on the end-to-end measurement of the performance of new PCs on key metrics such as boot and shutdown." (Improving boot times  is among the major goals for Windows 7.)

Recent online rumours have suggested that Windows 7 might be released as early as mid-2009, but most market watchers are predicting a 2010 or later release. Microsoft, as ever, has not announced a target release date this early in the development cycle.

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Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

"Sinofsky dropped a hint that Microsoft might encourage PC vendors to include less 'crapware' on machines that come with Vista pre-installed, "

Where do these jack-asses get off, They still believe they own the desktop. If MS wants to fight crapware they could set a good example by whittling out all the half baked MS application that bloat their OS.



19 September 2008, 10:07 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

u752181 (New user):

I see because you don't want it no one else should have it.

20 September 2008, 11:44 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting u752181:
I see because you don't want it no one else should have it.

What on earth are you talking about? It's nothing to do with my preferences. I'll say it again slowly! "It is arrogant for MS to feel they can dictate that others should not load crapware, while at the same time they see fit to bloat their own OS with crapware and lacklustre applications."


20 September 2008, 7:23 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Well, thats what's been assumed. If you actually read Sinofsky's quote, its not exactly that Blunt.

21 September 2008, 10:24 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Hemma:
Well, thats what's been assumed.

Sinofsky dropped a hint that Microsoft might encourage PC vendors to include less 'crapware' on machines that come with Vista pre-installed

Unless you are suggesting fabrication on the part of the author, then this is fact not assumption. The only assumption I have made is to assume Angus has accurately reported what was said. Do you have any reason to suggest this is not he case? Whether Sinofsky has actually expressed those sentiments to PC vendors or not, does nothing to reduce the arrogance of such a suggestion.




21 September 2008, 10:35 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Lets look at this whole quote:

"Together we have been sharing views on ways to provide differentiated PC experiences, customer feedback on pre-loaded software, and partnering on the end-to-end measurement of the performance of new PCs on key metrics such as boot and shutdown."

How is this arrogant? Yes, it is saying that they may include less crapware (but then it could also mean other methods of delivery).... but i don't see why you need to be so angry so early about this... afterall, its about the end-user's experience.... Just wait and see what actually comes out the other end of this process.....

And BTW, I'm not suggesting that Angus wrote a crap article full of fabrications. But I just don't think that 'Dropping a Hint' is not the same as 'Dropping a Bombshell'...

22 September 2008, 10:08 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Hemma:
How is this arrogant?

It isn't, but it in no way reduces the arrogance of the first statement.


Quoting Hemma:
Yes, it is saying that they may include less crapware

It is saying that MS intends to put pressure on hardware vendors, that is arrogant.

Quoting Hemma:
but i don't see why you need to be so angry so early about this...

I am not angry about this at all, I'll call a spade a spade. However I don't take kindly to the suggestion of "if you actually read", implying that somehow I had not done so.





22 September 2008, 12:55 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Quoting Raindog:
However I don't take kindly to the suggestion of "if you actually read", implying that somehow I had not done so.

Hahaha now you're taking what I said in a way that I've never intended. Sorry. Me bad engrish. Anyway, I am still not convinced that its an act of arrogance.


22 September 2008, 9:26 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
If MS wants to fight crapware they could set a good example by whittling out all the half baked MS application that bloat their OS.


Yep. Though with Vista, you'd end up almost with nothing left then.

20 September 2008, 10:42 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Hemma (User):

Heh. Did you come up with that all by yourself?

21 September 2008, 10:25 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

LostBenji (User):

Will be interesting to see if the crapware idea is ever acted upon. So many blame Vista for being a pig yet when you look at the complainers system, its full of it.

20 September 2008, 4:32 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Your Average Joe (Regular user):

Agreed !
Crapware downloaded from the Russian DDL's and drivers that were not ready for the Vista release were some of the contributors to the misconception that Vista wasn't 'ready' !
Personally I love 'crapware' and 'bloatware' !
As a computer enthusiast, I love to screw around with just about everything .................. Even Linux !
All under the protection of a Virtual Machine, under Vista, of course ;)

20 September 2008, 4:52 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Cornerstone member):

It is inevitable that statements like "fully backwards compatible with Vista" will attract condemnation from the MS detractors as a another 'window' dressing attempt by MS.

I personally, would rather have apps and utilities packaged into the OS and would rather have it there whenever/if ever, I wanted them. You know the old saying "Better to have it and not need it than to not have it .......... "

It is a natural evolution and this time maybe the OEM drivers will be ready for Vista so it can be backward compatible on Windows 7 :P

There is one consistent thing about the MS Marketing Machine though, and that is their unwillingness to learn not to make exagerated release 'date' announcements. But I supposed That's the intention, to draw out comments from forums just like this one :)

22 September 2008, 11:02 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
t is inevitable that statements like "fully backwards compatible with Vista" will attract condemnation from the MS detractors as a another 'window' dressing attempt by MS.

As someone very critical of recent windows offerings I'd say I'd have to disagree with that assumption. Strong Backwards compatibility with Vista and other windows releases will be a crucial part of the success of Win7.


Quoting Me In Oz:
I personally, would rather have apps and utilities packaged into the OS and would rather have it there whenever/if ever, I wanted them.

I am sure you and many others could enjoy the plethora of basic apps etc, that is your prerogative, but many of us would desire they weren't there. The real issue is that much of the embedded crapware becomes near impossible to remove for those who don't want it. Equally important they do not want the cost of apps they will never use bundled into an OS.

Why other than for desire to dominate the desktop cant MS bundle all that guff into something like Windows Plus for those who actually enjoy it? The marketing has run out of control to the detriment of the product.


Quoting Me In Oz:
It is a natural evolution and this time maybe the OEM drivers will be ready for Vista so it can be backward compatible on Windows

Again this is a two way street, if MS was more prepared to accept that there is room in the marketplace for many players, rather MS than playing favorites then they are far more likely to have OEM support ready by the release date of their new OS.


Quoting Me In Oz:
There is one consistent thing about the MS Marketing Machine though, and that is their unwillingness to learn not to make exagerated release 'date' announcements.

Agreed, and MS are not the only ones at fault in this area. But I'd rather see delays and a rock solid release, than to beta test their software on the early adaptors. Although as Vista has proven, lengthy delays do not always ensure a trouble free release.


22 September 2008, 1:11 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

CBR1100XX (Cornerstone member):

Quoting Raindog:
Although as Vista has proven, lengthy delays do not always ensure a trouble free release.

I'll agree that MS should shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it.
OEM, hardware and software developers had plenty of heads-up time from MS and still couldn't/wouldn't have their drivers and apps Vista 'compatible'. We as importers had a good 36 months 'warning' of Vista's release and yet this was not sufficient time for drivers/apps to be developed for an OS release from THE market leader ?




23 September 2008, 7:56 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
I'll agree that MS should shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it.


MS have had nearly 1 and a half years since release to fix some of the frustrating problems. How is that not their fault?
Slow network file sharing, slow response to clicking certain icons (network tray icon for example), noticeable blank screens when bringing up certain dialogs, UAC has 2 different dialogs for no reason, etc.

23 September 2008, 9:37 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

CBR1100XX (Cornerstone member):

Quoting Tin:
How is that not their fault?

My comment was directed at Vista's initial release !
I agree they have dragged their chain since but a couple of the issues you have suggested as frustrating, I have not had a problem with since SP1. Like File sharing speed is now 'acceptable' and blank screens in dialogs ? I have never struck this, even from day one install ! UAC is a "like it or hate it" relationship ....... Personally I can live with it.




23 September 2008, 9:49 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Me In Oz (Cornerstone member):

Quoting Raindog:
I'd have to disagree with that assumption.

We would have expected nothing less ;)

Quoting Raindog:
Equally important they do not want the cost of apps they will never use bundled into an OS.

On the flip side, it would be cheaper overall if MS had a product that had Win7, Office, Internet security, Download manager, Adware/Spyware remover ...... etc, all built into one OS release just like some of the Linux distros (Then you'd see some global outcry of 'foulplay' and anti-competition, seems if it is Linux then it's OK !).

Quoting Raindog:
rather MS than playing favorites

I don't think that that would be in their best interest. Playing favourites with OEM's is not conducive to their philosophy of wanting to own the desktop market. So let's be fair here, MS gave everyone plenty of 'warning'. Personally, I had to wait 4 months for a stable nVidia driver !

Quoting Raindog:
But I'd rather see delays and a rock solid release

So would all of us ! But in reality can anyone name a software release that was perfect and not having a patch 3-6 months later ?
If there were the IT support/maintenance industry would collapse ;)





23 September 2008, 11:31 AM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Your Average Joe (Regular user):


Quoting Me In Oz:
We would have expected nothing less ;)

LOL !

Quoting Me In Oz:
I had to wait 4 months for a stable nVidia driver !

I'm still having issues with my SB Audigy soundcard (Vista 32-bit drivers) .......:P

I'm glad Windows will have Vista compatibility and would suggest a change like going from Win 95 to Win 98. The leap from XP was a big one, in the order of the one from Win 3.11 to Win 95 which also had driver and app compatibility issues.

Quoting Me In Oz:
can anyone name a software release that was perfect and not having a patch 3-6 months later ?

Nope ! Can't think of one :)




23 September 2008, 2:36 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Playing favourites with OEM's is not conducive to their philosophy of wanting to own the desktop market.

Cough! MS is very much playing favorites, Dell & HP get a lot of favours others do not, MS has had a considered effort to squeeze out small and niche players.


Quoting Me In Oz:
MS gave everyone plenty of 'warning'. Personally, I had to wait 4 months for a stable nVidia driver !

Warning yes, years of warning along will endless promises of software utopia. Delivery of actual detail, and NDA secure source code was nowhere near as forth coming. MS in their paranoia to eliminate leaks (other than MS marketing planned leaks) delayed many OEMs and suppliers from months even years of vista driver R&D time.



23 September 2008, 4:52 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Your Average Joe (Regular user):

Quoting Raindog:
delayed many OEMs and suppliers from months even years of vista driver R&D time.

Come on Raindog ! take your anti-MS hat off for a moment !
4 months after RTM and nVidia still couldn't provide a stable driver ? That surely is not Microsoft's plan for world domination !




24 September 2008, 1:56 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
take your anti-MS hat off for a moment !

Why? My displeasure with MS is well based, equally I'll applaud when they do something good, but there has been very little of that lately. Just a lot of apologies and a sentiment of never question the juggernaut. I'll continue to reserve my right to call a spade a spade and a dud a dud.

Quoting Your Average Joe:
4 months after RTM and nVidia still couldn't provide a stable driver ?

Now how many months exactly was Vista in formation? Yes that many?

And what part of this revised windows changed most? The GUI and the graphics.

So its alright for MS to fart about for years for their buggy release but a Graphics Card Vendor is supposed to have error free coding of a complete driver rewrite delivered to market within 4 months.

The mind boggles at anyone defending such a situation. The coders at nVidia are sure putting those at MS to shame. But then we all know the problems at MS don't exist with their code people.




24 September 2008, 9:21 PM (1 year ago)report abuse Send to a friend reply

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