XP still killing Vista in sales volume: HP

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

"Vista is dead" .......................... According to HP !
Won't have choice by Christmas for Win OS ! (here's where all the Linux fanboys jump in)

Jeff (User):

Quoting Me In Oz:
"Vista is dead" .......................... According to HP !


And you see it being alive? It is being killed by its predecessor XP and though that is being cutoff the new Windows is due out at the start of next year, which can't be worse than Vista, or people will really start running off to Mac OSX and Linux (and inside sources tell me that even in its early stages its better than Vista ;) )

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
(here's where all the Linux fanboys jump in)

That's odd? I certainly looked like where the PFY made another ill considered prediction.

XP will be about for business sale up and well after the release of Vista's successor. Any other decision would be commercial suicide.

Purchase paths are only mapped for those who are willing to be led.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
Purchase paths are only mapped for those who are willing to be led.

You love your metaphors, Raindog !
We are all led by the megacorporations as consumers (of everything), unless of course, we live in a log cabin in the woods like you Raindog !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
We are all led by the megacorporations as consumer

Says the lad who chooses to nick name himself after a non descript japanese motorcyle, well I guess in your case it may hold true, but I don't think I am alone in having a enough clues not to have things dictated to me. Maybe you were a sheep in another life?


Quoting CBR1100XX:
unless of course, we live in a log cabin in the woods

Well rural retreats do have their advantages, it would be nice to spend more time there,but I'm very much in demand in the city, to solve the problems of stupid people and jumping fools. :>

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

So you're now an experienced motorcyclist too ?
And as for your avatar/nickname ? ...... People who live in glasshouses .... :P

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
People who live in glasshouses ..


moment before while you were muttering about metaphores you were certain I resided in a log cabin, not too sure of yourself are you CB?? Vista may well be for you.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
moment before while you were muttering about metaphores

Seems to be the only form of communication !

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
moment before while you were muttering about metaphores

I used a metaphor so you would feel more comfortable, but obviously I have overestimated your wit !

adredz (New user):

Quoting Me In Oz:
(here's where all the Linux fanboys jump in)


so where are the Linux fanboys now? all i see is a bunch of bluffing MS monkeys!:)

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting adredz:
so where are the Linux fanboys now?

At home trying to get Windows Apps to run under WINE ?

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
At home trying to get Windows Apps to run under WINE


For someone so satiated by Vista you sure are spooked by Apple, XP and Linux. Could be your noisy stance far exceed your comfort level with this OS that you just like, but don't know why. :>

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
but don't know why.

Oh ! We know why !
We would rather dimwitted people find out for themselves, It's to their advantage in the long run :)

Halcon (Cornerstone member):

Microsoft knows that Vista is a failed product, they are wagging a lost battle for the operating system dominance.
Mac OS X and Linux are gaining more users, thought Linux is not at the same level of user friendliness as Windows XP, the Open Source people are working hard to break this barrier, I hope they will sooner or later.
Microsoft must know they can't slave their users with their arrogant conditions in the software license, today many people have more than one computer in home, if this is the case you the "end User" are blackmailed to buy the required amount of the same software for the amount of computers you have in home.
This does not come so cheap, that is why Open source gives you the freedom of choice to use and install in as many computers as you like without paying a cent, now try to get at least that in five PCs to use the Windows OS, the license is for 1 computer you have to buy 4 more copies of the same product off shelf and spend a fortune.
It's time to stop this kind of abuse, tell Microsoft enough is enough!

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Halcon:
It's time to stop this kind of abuse, tell Microsoft enough is enough!

Doesn't seem like the message is getting through with the MS share of the OS market at staggering levels of domination. This is not even taking into account their share of the Apps, Hardware and Console sectors :)

techdribble (User):

wait and upgrade to mojave
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-9998336-56.html

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting techdribble:
wait and upgrade to mojave
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-9998336-56.html

Hey Raindog !
Tell us the truth ...... you were one of the surveyed, weren't you ? LOL

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Go on Raindog ..... Admit you were one of the ones surveyed LOL

BTW ! Great post techdribble !

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

The best advertisement for Linux/MacOSX/WinXP has been Vista. Nothing else has had such an extreme effect.

Aubrey (Advanced member):

(here's where all the Linux fanboys jump in)

Sorry, I was just out recompiling my kernel. Um, yeah, linux rocks! go linux! um, yeah.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Aubrey:
Sorry, I was just out recompiling my kernel. Um, yeah, linux rocks! go linux! um, yeah

Aubrey ! .... That's genuinely funny LOL :)

Halcon (Cornerstone member):

Raindog said "XP will be about for business sale up... any other decision would be commercial suicide".
You are right fella, most business prefer Windows XP Professional, because is more robust and fastest than that flash trash of Vista!
Moreover, Microsoft lost their vision, they need eye drops to see what is happening now, everyone is trying to flee to another OS, business suffer same problem as the end users, this is related to the cost of the software in itself, a real pain in the ass.
Tin said "The best advertisement for Linux/MacOSX/WinXP has been Vista. Nothing else has had such an extreme effect".
Best advertisement??? How about the gross arrogant clauses Microsoft put in their EULA, some people without computing experience would be shocked to be treated like scum if they do not accept such evil conditions.
People that work for Microsoft are faceless criminals with license, trying to impose unrealistic conditions upon its users; the users like it or not have to accept these prerogatives against their will as if these users were meek lambs ready to be sacrificed just for the so called "right to innovation".
Right now, there is a lot of toe suckers worshiping the Microsoft God, thinking these bastards will receive an interesting reward from the juggernaut.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Halcon:
most business prefer Windows XP Professional, because is more robust and fastest than that flash trash of Vista

Well not exactly, most businesses don't exist for the purposes of running and upgrading Microsoft software. Business preference for XP in general is because a lot of investment has been expended in establishing those windows environments. Migration to any different OS has a lot of cost associated and those costs need offer substantial benefits to be worthwhile. At a desktop level what Vista presents is essentially a sideways or back step.
Moreover MS has been hell bent on thrusting Vista upon the marketplace, and demanding the upgrade cost be absorbed. It is this MS arrogance, the forced redundancy, the massive over pricing, the refusal to listen to customers, and the extortive licensing that has end users considering alternatives to Windows OS.

The fanboys can get all exited about ribbon interfaces, some new pop-up annoyance, or just any change at all as motivation to incur huge hardware and software and time expenses of an upgrade cycle but in the real world PCs are tools for communication, for producing documents, running spreadsheet, building databases, and all the guff added to successive windows releases has done little to improve how PC achieve these tasks.

There is no particular love for XP and most have caught on that it offered very little over W2K and a move to XP created considerable pain for whatever upgrade gain it delivered. It is only those that use their PCs as toys and not tools that see another forced migration (Vista) as worthwhile.

MS have held a majority market share with Windows and with DOS before it for two decades, that was due to them offering the best cost/feature/ease of use compromise to the largest volume of users. The competitors have all improved their offerings considerable while Windows upgrades (well MS see them as upgrades) are becoming less for more with each new iteration.

Most users are not fleeing windows for other operating systems they are being pushed that way! A favour for XP represents the inertia, that has in reality delivered most users remaining comfortable with a windows environment despite its many flaws. But ignore or cost affect that comfortable user base, lock them out of updates, or force them into an unwanted upgrade cycle in a direction they do not wish to travel and then other OSs have become very real alternatives for many who would not have contemplated a move.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

What a load of Anti-MS diatribe.
Time for those Imodium tablets, Raindog ... It's coming out both ends !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
What a load of Anti-MS diatribe

well there's your random opinion. Where is the rationale, facts, back-up, reasoning etc to prove it's anything more than the stupid unfounded opinion of a fan boy? If you have nothing to add can you do it quietly? :>

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
Where is the rationale,

Check out your previous posting efforts for a rationale !

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Don't waste the wear and tear on your keyboard on this guy. I get the feeling he may be a stooge on the APC payroll to bolster the news comments section ;)

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Wow. That's insightful. Why didn't you just say "Raindog's mum" and save some typing?

The reality is how Raindog has said it... Businesses (which comprise something like 90% of computer purchasers) simply don't want to stuff around with Vista. And those that are putting effort into looking at switching are also looking at other options which might save them money.

You can name call and try to tell people things all you want, but the REALITY is that Vista is pushing the big buyers away from MS.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Tin !
Do you honestly believe that MS has released Vista so it would drive away customers ? ......... If you do then shall I sign off with "Tin's mum"

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
(which comprise something like 90% of computer purchasers)
Where did this figure come from ?
We sell and maintain computers here in the South of Brisbane, Qld and let me tell you that only about 20% of our customers are businesses. A business will purchase pc's and keep them for a relatively long time. We have some still using Win95 for POS etc. Whereas home customers are regularly upgrading systems and hardware !

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Is your business Dell, HP, IBM or some other massive vendor? No.
The companies and government departments that order in batches of 100+ wouldn't even look at your shop.

As for where the number comes from, I don't know. It may not be that high, but it's certainly much higher than the home users Vista is aimed at.

And no, I don't really think MS wanted to drive people away. I think they truly considered Vista to be an improvement, but they aren't listening to the people who are pointing out flaws, issues and bad design. And that's not helping anyone.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
As for where the number comes from, I don't know.
Jesus ! Don't let Raindog get hold of this ;)

Seriously, we are not a massive dealer. But we don't just sell pc's, we also maintain them and have a good idea of the cross section of users and purchasers out in the real world. We have about 200 businesses on our books and not one runs Mac, about a dozen run Linux (some form or other) and the rest Win, of which Vista is about 10%. We have warned the rest of the Win brigade about XP's imminent departure as we did when 95 and 98 (yet we still maintain them ... go figure) ended.

You are right about the MS PR department though. That is the area in which they should work at !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Where did this figure come from ?

What basis do you have to refute this figure?


Quoting Me In Oz:
We sell and maintain computers here in the South of Brisbane, Qld and let me tell you that only about 20% of our customers are businesses.

Well that is conclusive isn't it.


Quoting Me In Oz:
A business will purchase pc's and keep them for a relatively long time.

Some business users may. Many household users still run Win9x, I'm sure there is some out there somewhere still trying to connect his Vic20 to the Internet. What is your point?


Quoting Me In Oz:
Whereas home customers are regularly upgrading systems and hardware !

And you can provide basis for these claims? Using you current method of data gathering it would also be correct to assume that 98% if PC purchasers had acne. :>

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
What basis do you have to refute this figure?

You can refute my facts with your ........ what ?

A small random sampling in a population can be very indicative of the population in general ........ or was Stats101 not one of your strong subjects ?

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
You can refute my facts with your ........ what ?

What facts? Your confusing my pointing out of holes in your assumptions with a dispute of fact.


Quoting Me In Oz:
A small random sampling in a population can be very indicative of the population in general .

Or it can, as is, in this case be absolute bunkum!!

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
Or it can, as is, in this case be absolute bunkum!!

.... According to Raindog, so it must be true :P
Me in Oz has stated what he does with a valid foundation for his claims.
We have yet to ascertain what is it that makes you such an expert to be able to refute everyone elses claims !
You hide behind you anonimity in cyberspace where you are a legend in your own luch box !
But you know what ? As Homer Simpson says "Let the baby have his bottle" ...... It is obviously the only highlight in your day LOL

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
... According to Raindog, so it must be true

You really are beginning to get with the program.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
with a valid foundation for his claims.

if it looks like random observation and it smells like random observation. then it must be?


Quoting Your Average Joe:
We have yet to ascertain what is it that makes you such an expert to be able to refute everyone else's claims !

you'll catch on. Why are you afraid of any claims being questioned? a little insecure perhaps? A little unsure on the subject?
The first thing they should have taught you in High School science is that nothing is ever totally proven but that anything can possibly be disproved. Why should I compensate for your insecurity of resolve?


Quoting Your Average Joe:
You hide behind you

I hide behind nothing! I say what I think and I don't march to the beat of any particular organisation. I don't need a gang, or a corporation to have my opinions for me. That's what you cannot cope will.
Quoting Your Average Joe:
But you know what ?

No? but you think you are going to enlighten me? Do you?


Quoting Your Average Joe:
As Homer Simpson says

A cartoon role model, is that your best? Education by television, come and see the results of such neglect first hand.

It's not that hard determine who are the fanboys, and as much as it irks you I have no desire to divulge details of my business with spotted and posturing herberts the likes of you.

If you choose to disagree with me that's fine, you are more than entitled to be wrong whenever you wish, but if you wish to denigrate a discussion with fanboy chants and name calling don't complain about being mocked or ignored by me or anyone else with even half a clue. :>
Quoting Your Average Joe:
. It is obviously the only highlight in your day LOL

highlight no, you are way of beam again, but watching people make fools of themselves through ignorance does offer the odd millisecond of perverse enjoyment.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
and as much as it irks you I have no desire to divulge details of my business

You flatter yourself. I'm sure it will irk no one !
And as for your deluded Superman syndrome ? ..... We would all rather like to think of you as the nerdy Clark Kent ... LOL

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Repost:
Drawn from the DX11 thread.
For anyone interested in a good laugh, Raindog seems to think he is a one man development team, and I have asked for his business cred (highly doubtful he will submit it) ....
And the web address is ..... so we all can visit the great Raindog at work ? Or as I suspect you're a frustrated coder in the basement of a 2 bit development house earning $35,000 a year ? ...... Please correct me if I'm wrong with some proof, not just more quotations drawn from the book on your desk !


Quoting Raindog:
cynical an untrusting marketplace?

I don't think it's the marketplace that is cynical and untrustworthy !

You really do sound like an angry man ! Time for a valium and chill because it's not all about you Raindog.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
and I have asked for

Ask all you like



Quoting Your Average Joe:
highly doubtful he will submit it

well there you go, amidst a whole day of stupid you actually got something right...


Quoting Your Average Joe:
so we all can visit the great Raindog at work ?


Not without an order number you wont... paying customers only. Oh and if you wouldn't mind its "The Great" not "the great" when referring to Raindog. OK?

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Or as I suspect you're a

I knew it was too good to be true, there you you've slunk back to guesses and wild predictions already.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
Please correct me if I'm wrong

Oh I'll do that, but it's a lot of hard work given your almost never right.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
You really do sound like an angry man !

Why would I be angry, I know you cannot help it, you just don't have the intellect for rational debate..


Quoting Your Average Joe:
it's not all about you

I'm glad you can see that, I'd rather not be the focus of all your adoration, that is just way creepy. To have you taking the time to read my every post you sure must be in awe. Are you sure you haven't confused a forum with one of you lame RPGs, perhaps you think I'm batman?

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
To have you taking the time to read my every post

We all need the comedic relief ... LOL




Quoting Raindog:
think I'm batman?

No ! The nerdy Clark Kent !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
We would all rather like to think

That's good I would like you all to take time out to actually think. Give it a go anyway, you may even enjoy doing it. :>

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
That's good I would like you all to take time out to actually think.

We did ! We all THINK you're are a nerdy anti-MS geek with nothing to add but semantics ......... oh ! and quotes :)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

This guy is a crack up. I've sent the thread to all the guys here and it really is an early morning pick me up while the coffee is hot ! It would be a light hearted stoush if he didn't seriously think he was right and everyone else was wrong ..... hee hee
Pass it around to your colleagues. I haven't seen anyone this ignorant and inept before !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
if he didn't seriously think he was right

I dont think I am right, I know, are you to stupid to get it?


Quoting Me In Oz:
and everyone else was wrong

No not everyone else, just you ignorant (and noisy) fan-boys!

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Craig using Me In Oz login:

Quoting Raindog:
I dont think I am right, I know,
............. OPINION !

metawork (User):

Yep, this is what i was looking into.70-649

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
What facts? Your confusing my pointing out of holes in your assumptions with a dispute of fact.

I've yet seen anything you have posted as fact ..... all anti-ms BS !

Quoting Raindog:
Or it can, as is, in this case be absolute bunkum!!

You really are the population's lowest common denominator, Raindog !
Would you like me to elaborate ? .... Just in case you failed algebra101 too ... LOL

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
Businesses (which comprise something like 90% of computer purchasers) simply don't want to stuff around with Vista.

I'd happily migrate systems to Vista if I could see a worthwhile reason to do so. But no matter how I do the sums it doesn't weigh up. There are some good tools at the admin level but that'd be a hard sell to customers and still wouldn't outweigh the hassles introduced.

A major rework of windows code and yet it is still unable to accept connection to more then one domain. There are lots of areas windows code could be refined cheaply to produce genuine improvements but they have not happened after successive upgrade cycles. I've yet to see one compelling reason why a Vista migration warrant the hassle.

Quoting Me In Oz:
I get the feeling he may be a stooge on the APC payroll to bolster the news comments section

No not on the payroll, and I sure some there would be concerned at the suggestion. I am fully independent, however if you wish to contribute cash donations I am sure APC could forward these as appropriate.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Check out your previous posting efforts for a rationale !

But that was not your rationale. Scroll through your Vista menus and look for one that says "Structured and reasoned argument" click on that.

You are attempting to peddle a pro vista arguement, and yet you and the other happy clickers appear unable to mutter ever a single reason why. HP's data is staring you in the face and you can be sure results at Dell are very similar. MS will be claiming all those box sales as Vista numbers but ther are only kidding themselves. And the "it's good coz I said and it runs on my box, so there set" are being had over by everyone.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
You are attempting to peddle a pro vista arguement, and yet you and the other happy clickers appear unable to mutter ever a single reason why.

We happy clickers don't have to justify anything ! .... We're happy with Vista !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
We happy clickers don't have to justify anything ! .... We're happy with Vista !

So ignorance truly is bliss? :>

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
So ignorance truly is bliss?

Man ! You do use metaphors like a crutch !

gankul (Cornerstone member):

No, its not ignorance, its more that they are just happy with their purchase.

I would rather be happy with my purchase and not feel the need to justify it, then having to always justify the purchase.

Jesse Dorland (New user):

You're mostly right most of the users will resent what MS is doing and will not rebel. However, there are few like me in this world. I have downgrade my laptop with Windows XP, and I am duel booting it with Linux. Also I have beening using Linux Kubuntu (KDE based Ubuntu) on my desktop over four years.

Just last week I needed to buy a new computer, and I decided to get a Mac-Mini, and I must say I am quite happy. It's not very good operating system for a poweruser, but It's very stable, and secure. Not to mention it is running on BSD kernel -- also I can run all sort of linux software on it.

What I am trying to say is that there are few like me outthere who will not follow the trend or whatever M$ or even Apple tell us to do.

Wazza (Cornerstone member):

So, in other words, Microsoft counts a sale for Vista, even though the computer manufacturer has really sold XP. <----- This is quite funny

Tiger Beer (New user):

Quoting Wazza:
So, in other words, Microsoft counts a sale for Vista, even though the computer manufacturer has really sold XP

Yes but do they count a sale of XP as well?

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Quoting Tiger Beer:
Yes but do they count a sale of XP as well?


Heh, that would be funny. Wouldn't surprise me though.

theparticleman (New user):

When will people give up being afraid of the Vista bogeyman? How many people that complain about Vista have actually even used it? I've used Vista on several machines and it's worked great for the most part. I even installed it on a couple machines that original had XP on them (gasp!). That's not to say that no one has problems with a few drivers or legacy apps in Vista, but I think the Vista negativity is being blown WAY out of proportion by the media.

If memory serves, when XP first came out there was a huge uproar against it as well. "The XP theme is ugly and stupid! Win2000 is perfect!" It seems like a lot of people are afraid of change. Which is odd considering that a lot of these people are (presumably) in the technology business, an industry known for levels of change that are unheard of in the history of the world. For those who are afraid of change, may I suggest that you take up blacksmithing instead of computers?

Wazza (Cornerstone member):

Quoting theparticleman:
When will people give up being afraid of the Vista bogeyman?

I'm in agreeance with you. I've been using Vista for over 12 months and have been more than happy with it. I don't use it to the technical level of some, but overall I can't complain about it.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

You're preaching to people that thought Windows was doomed when 95 was released. I have been lucky enough to be in IT and have used all the releases. And with the exception of Me, all have been good. My favourite has always been Win2000. Still running it on my 'new' laptop for work. Looking forward to Windows 7 now :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting theparticleman:
When will people give up being afraid of the Vista bogeyman?

When the benefits offered exceed the negatives created.


Quoting theparticleman:
I've used Vista on several machines and it's worked great

For what? You go on to say that you have hardly stretched any boundaries, and meanwhile in even basic office environments Vista migration remains costly, offers little or negative gains in productivity and has created all manner of compatibility issues.


Quoting theparticleman:
I even installed it on a couple machines that original had XP on them

Well give yourself a green elephant stamp, your mother must be very proud. Exhaustive research indeed.


Quoting theparticleman:
That's not to say that no one has problems with a few drivers or legacy apps in Vista


Problems that MS are attempting to force customers to have whether they want them or not.

Quoting theparticleman:
If memory serves, when XP first came out there was a huge uproar against it as well.

That memory is very much correct a forced upgrade that cost thousands upon thousands and for what? Interventionist pop-ups, license upgrade hell with legitimate users treated like criminals after a hardware change.
Lots of business still has those memories! And now with MS dictating that business will have to upgrade and pension off workable equipment and incur another raft of costs for little gain to ride the next MS upgrade. An upgrade (questionable) that will cost thousands and offer what? A new theme? Yet more dictatorial intervention?

MS are going full steam ahead at killing off the inertia that has kept windows as the user favorite for a decade and having those same users begin to consider migrating to the alternatives.


Quoting theparticleman:
It seems like a lot of people are afraid of change. Which is odd considering that a lot of these people are (presumably) in the technology business, an industry known for levels of change that are unheard of in the history of the world.

Afraid of change? No! Afraid of budget over-runs with no or negative returns on the investment Yes!! That is a very real fear.
Take a moment to ponder if you will, how you could justify to a cash strapped management, how spending on Vista would be a good thing to do?
How would having a way cool (questionable) user bar and new icons benefit the company's bottom line?

Quoting theparticleman:
For those who are afraid of change, may I suggest that you take up blacksmithing instead of computers?

IT managers who suggest change for changes sake at high cost without measurable return or advantage could perhaps consider equine podiatry as a less risky form of employment. MS enforcing change to their own advantage may see many changing to non MS operating systems.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting theparticleman:
How many people that complain about Vista have actually even used it?

I assume at least 50%. Some even use it as one of their primary OSes and have been since the betas.
Sure some people complain just because it's different... But many complain because it really does suck. Many of it's features simple don't work very well.
* File sharing speeds suck, and it insists on loading the entire file list before letting you click anything making browsing a network share painful.
* UAC is nice, but the interface is terrible to the point people turn it off or ignore it.
* Media Center is average at best (really feels like a half-arsed program)
* Network Connection Center is retarded... More and more PCs have 2 or more NICs, yet it wants to go backwards and pretend there's only one.
* Logon screen is NOT suitable for a generic business.


Quoting theparticleman:
If memory serves, when XP first came out there was a huge uproar against it as well.

Yes, and guess what... It was because of activation and the initial suggestion all drivers would have to be WHQL signed. very few people were against XP because it looked different.
I warned some people not to get XP and stick it on the boxes they had Win98 on... But I actually told people XP was pretty damn good.

Jeff (User):

Quoting theparticleman:
How many people that complain about Vista have actually even used it?


I complain about Vista, and I've used it (currently am as well). Vista just has sooo many problems with it ranging from huge performance problems to a poorly designed UI. I've tried running Vista on high powered single core machines and it's painfully slow! Then there is the well know network copying problem - yes SP1 did improve that, but its still not good enough - I get significantly better performance on the Windows Samba protocol from Linux an Macs than I do from Vista!!

Then there is the UI - the only useful thing they have is the search in the start menu and even that is too slow. Everything else you want to do takes much longer and is generally more complicated to do than in previous versions of windows (95 - XP).

I really can't see how anyone can view Vista as even worth using - It uses ridiculous amounts of computer resources to run smoothly, has huge performance issues and has a degraded UI compared to previous versions...

MiCCAS (Frequent poster):

It's interesting to point out the article says the reason why people aren't upgrading are because "they simply hadn't had the time to do full compatibility testing of all their business applications with Vista yet".

So that's not necessarily saying they don't like Vista, or that they will have issues, it's just that they haven't TESTED it yet

AndyCee (Advanced member):

It wouldn't surprise me if many home users/businesses have avoided Vista without using or testing it.

If that's the case, I believe it could be attributed mostly to bad marketing of Vista (particularly around its release) for home users.

For business specifically, a good sysadmin won't buy an upgrade that holds no direct benefit for the system they administer.

Currently:
- XP runs Office 2007 & most common business software
- UAC can be implemented to a degree on XP
- Businesses don't care about Aero, DirectX 10 & 11, media centre or better/ more intuitive "settings management" (ie how easy it is to make or change system settings) if it's already been implemented and working in XP.

Or am I wrong? I've probably missed some feature of Vista.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting AndyCee:
It wouldn't surprise me if many home users/businesses have avoided Vista without using or testing it.

And this is truly a shame because Vista is not really that bad !
They have been sucked in by all the bad hype even before Vista was released to market. If they tested objectively or blindly as in the 'Mojave' project (posted above by techdribble) they would be pleasantly surprised.
Quoting AndyCee:
For business specifically, a good sysadmin won't buy an upgrade that holds no direct benefit for the system they administer.

And this is what we have advocated in our support department.
But it comes with a caveat that XP is soon to be extinct and the translation to an upgrade is when, not if !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
And this is truly a shame because Vista is not really that bad !

Which you keep repeating ad-nauseum. And yet you have not been able to explain a single reason why Vista is preferable to it's predecessor.


Quoting Me In Oz:
They have been sucked in by all the bad hype

No one has been suckered into anything. It has been stated a number of of times that respondents have used used or and in some cases continue to use Vista. The only suckers are those that see a GUI rehash as some kind of forward progress.


Quoting Me In Oz:
this is what we have advocated

No you are advocating change for changes sake as something all should embrace because that is a vendors wish.


Quoting Me In Oz:
But it comes with a caveat that XP is soon to be extinct and the translation to an upgrade is when, not if !

XP support won't be drying up at some near time-line regardless of how difficult MS makes it for their customers. How MS manage their own support will be a major consideration in what path customers take in future upgrades.

If corporates are forced to wear the cost of implementing their own loads of XP rather than an off shelf purchase from major vendors (albeit with a Vista sticker) then that will have just ticked another negative towards further use of MS product.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Which you keep repeating ad-nauseum. And yet you have not been able to explain a single reason why Vista is preferable to it's predecessor.

I'll repeat it s...l...o...w...l...y for you.
We don't have to justify anything ...... We're happy with Vista !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
We don't have to justify anything ...... We're happy with Vista !

Your quite entitled to think that. unless it's changed recently, and much to my continual dismay, pig ignorance is not illegal. Go shoot your aliens on your mine's bigger bigger overclocked clone to your hearts content, wear your cap backwards, buy a gamers rule tee shirt, nobody much cares.

But try to force your opinion as the only right and I'll show you up as the narrow minded fool you are.

"We're happy with it" contributes nothing, happy with Vista Why? Where are the positives over XP, thus far you've been able to suggest a single reason why a Vista migration offers an overall benefit.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Go shoot your aliens on your mine's bigger bigger overclocked clone to your hearts content, wear your cap backwards, buy a gamers rule tee shirt,

Now who's making unfoundered assumptions ?
Careful Raindog ! You are turning into the thing you detest ! .. A poster of opinions .. LOL

Quoting Raindog:
But try to force your opinion

I have ?
Quoting Raindog:
I'll show you up as the narrow minded fool you are.

You have so obviously shown to everyone that you do not have the intellectual capacity !

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
Your quite entitled to think that.

At least that is some sort of concession !
Come on, Raindog. Don't go turning soft on us :)

Quoting Raindog:
But try to force your opinion

I don't read anything of the sort from anyone !
This is a forum for everyone to express their OPINIONS !
The sooner you can grasp this concept, Raindog, the better your nights sleep will be !

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
If they tested objectively or blindly as in the 'Mojave' project (posted above by techdribble) they would be pleasantly surprised.

Actually, that "project" never let the subjects properly test it. The way I read it, they only showed them Vista.
And if they are willing to lie about the name, perhaps they also lied about any issues they raised; I know I've read a few MS propaganda items that state that issues I have don't exist.

The pure facts are that some people like Vista, and others don't. I personally like SOME parts (UAC, improved firewall) and I can't stand other parts (logon screen when on domains, UAC's interface, bloat).

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
And if they are willing to lie about the name,

This is what the MS Marketing has been fighting all along. Change Vista's name to Mojave and all the naysayers (surveyed) find the good points with Windows 6. Change it back later to Vista and the naysayers will find all the bad points with Windows 6 ..... go figure !

AndyCee (Advanced member):

Quoting Me In Oz:
But it comes with a caveat that XP is soon to be extinct and the translation to an upgrade is when, not if !

Well, XP will be officially supported until 2014, which following the Windows release cycle of a new upgrade about every 3 years means there will be two new versions of windows before XP becomes extinct.

Of course, this all depends on a business's software & hardware requirements & compatibilities.

Why not wait with a working product, and see what windows 7 (or even 8)has to offer?

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

This is great !
Raindog vs Everybody ....... Better than pro wrestling !
Seems you're losing a little credibility here, Raindog ... so I'll help. You're trying to be too polite and discrete when in fact what you're saying is
MS SUX and everything else is good. Correct ?

APC is loving this. It's their best response yet :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting plutonium210:
This is great !

it is?


Quoting plutonium210:
Raindog vs Everybody ....... Better than pro wrestling !

No Raindog verses a half dozen noisy fanboys, hardly a fair battle.


Quoting plutonium210:
You're trying to be too polite and discrete

I am?

Quoting plutonium210:
when in fact what you're saying is

No it appears you too are missing the point.



Quoting plutonium210:
MS SUX and everything else is good. Correct ?

No that is not what I'd advocated, you people really need to work on your comprehension.


Quoting plutonium210:
APC is loving this.

I'd very much doubt that. Id have thought they had hoped for opinions to be expressed without the fan-boy retorts and the "it runs for me so there" type comments. But I could be wrong.

Did you have anything to contribute re: XP still outselling Vista in sales volume?

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
No it appears you too are missing the point.
You have a point ?

Quoting Raindog:
No that is not what I'd advocated, you people really need to work on your comprehension.

I only see one common denominator here !

Quoting Raindog:
I'd very much doubt that.

Oh yes they are ! They are using it a a patronage survey !

Quoting Raindog:
Did you have anything to contribute re: XP still outselling Vista in sales volume?

This is much better than the original news :)

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
But I could be wrong.

Holy Crap Batman (your words) .... Another concession :)

Quoting Raindog:
No Raindog verses a half dozen noisy fanboys, hardly a fair battle.

Awww ... Feeling a little bullied ?
It's not half a dozen, Raindog ..... It's millions Bwa ha ha ha :)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
It's not half a dozen, Raindog ..... It's millions Bwa ha ha ha :)

I've logged this thread on to the 30" screened Vista pc here at work so my MS fanboy colleagues can participate. So some of the comments will not be my own.

Keep it coming Raindog, we want some comedy for the rest of the week :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
so my MS fanboy colleagues can participate.

You got me stumped now. I just can't think of the collective noun for that.

Perhaps it's "A Stupid of Fan-Boys".


Quoting Me In Oz:
So some of the comments will not be my own.

standards could only improve.



Quoting Me In Oz:
Keep it coming Raindog

I'll point out your stupidity at my convenience, rather that to any schedule you may desire.

And since you have this collective of Vista fan-boys together, why not bang your heads together and see if you can all actually put forward a compelling reason for Vista Migration? There is still room!

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Perhaps it's "A Stupid of Fan-Boys".

.... or a committee of one for Raindog.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
standards could only improve.

Only if you get off your anti-MS pedestal and get a sense of humour !

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
I'll point out your stupidity at my convenience, rather that to any schedule you may desire.

We'll be waiting with baited breath for your snippets of wisdom ............... The world needs more clowns :D

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
You got me stumped now.

It hasn't been difficult !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Feeling a little bullied ?

Um no!!


Quoting CBR1100XX:
It's not half a dozen, Raindog ..... It's millions

so just like flies?

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
I'd very much doubt that. Id have thought they had hoped for opinions to be expressed without the fan-boy retorts and the "it runs for me so there" type comments. But I could be wrong.

They love it ! As a patronage survey it's priceless !

Quoting Raindog:
Did you have anything to contribute re: XP still outselling Vista in sales volume?

No ! I just love unmoderated forums :)

adredz (New user):

yup Raindog vs Everybody...and it's very FUNNY to think that even a combined "tiny brains" of "Everybody" can't even beat Raindog! :)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Finally !
Raindog's brother speaks up ! LOL

adredz (New user):

yup!Raindog vs Everybody..and it's so FUNNY to think that even a combined "tiny brains" of EVERYBODY can't beat Raindog reasoning-wise. And no, he is not losing credibility, he is credible as he has been from the start.:)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Craig using me In Oz login:

Quoting adredz:
he is credible

In the spirit of Raindog ! ...... This is 'unfoundered OPINION' :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
This is 'unfoundered OPINION'


No, this is your typographical error, all these legions of MS fan boy minds and none of you thought to run a spell check?

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
No, this is your typographical error,

Unfortunately not! Craig is genuinely hopeless at spelling .... Kids these days .... Too much spell checking and not enough reading ! (he's great with networking though)

I, myself, would have used "unsubstantiated" rather than "unfounded"

Aubrey (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
No Raindog verses a half dozen noisy fanboys, hardly a fair battle.

Agreed. So far, in 77 posts, there has not been one actual point about why people should "upgrade" to Vista except that MS will one day remove support for XP.

I have to admit, I have never used Vista but I live with two Windows Fanboys (gamers) who have both bought Vista pre-installed machines and have reverted them to XP within a week. One of them even picks up a bit of pocket-money doing XP installs (and regular follow-up clean-ups) for friends' mothers and other rels who have bought Vista machines and find they want XP instead.

MS has already relented in the netbook market on its "No More XP" policy. How long before they extend its retail life for desktops too? The funny thing is that for the netbooks it was facing real competition from Linux whereas for desktops it is mainly competing with itself.

If I was a betting man, I'd love to put some money on a trifecta of:

1) XP still being sold on retail machines for Xmas 2008 and still outselling Vista
2) Balmer gone before Xmas;
3) Massive price drop on retail Vista (cheaper than XP).

Oh, I nearly forgot: Linux rox! Windoze sux! (just something for Me In Oz to respond to, you understand.)

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Aubrey:
there has not been one actual point about why people should "upgrade" to Vista

Raindog doesn't want anyone to force their beliefs and opinions on others ! ............... And to repeat ad-nauseum "We don't have to justify Vista ! We LOVE it" :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Raindog doesn't want anyone to force their beliefs and opinions on others !

No he doesn't! What Raindog would like to see is you putting forward some reasons why. You are busy evangelising Vista, you just love it, you say but why?

There have been numerous valid reasons for not adopting Vista and yet the only pro Vista argument is ....... well? Non existent?

As yet team fan boy has not levelled even a single argument. A lot of schoolboy name calling, a lot of us & them posturing but not one valid reason why they would choose Vista?

It's clear Vista has hit the spot with the less able, but sadly they are unable to communicate why that is.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
but sadly they are unable to communicate why that is.

Here it is in it's simplest form Raindog !

"Vista suits all our computing requirements, for work and play, we prefer it over other OS's because we LIKE it. People don't need to explain why they love Holdens or Fords, Labor or Liberal, girlfriends or wives .... they just do! We don't have to explain it or justify it to naysayers like yourself. I has it's issues, but hey, they all do. You, though, seem to have a genuine hatred of MS as a whole, not just Vista. You have admitted to earning a living off MS and it's offsprings so you should not complain too much." - here endeth the lesson from the millions of fanboys :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Here it is in it's simplest form

Simple is definitely your strong suite.



Quoting Me In Oz:
Vista suits all our computing requirements

Who is OUR? It may suit your requirements, but you then insist it is right for everyone.


Quoting Me In Oz:
we prefer it over other OS's because we LIKE it.

Fair enough? But why do you like it? What are the benefits? If you like it for the sake of liking it, then stating that serves no purpose and does not explain your evangelising of Vista.

Quoting Me In Oz:
People don't need to explain

For their comment to be of value, they really do need to explain. What purpose does an expression of preference for preferences sake serve?


Quoting Me In Oz:
We don't have to explain it or justify it to naysayers like yourself.

That's odd, I've said all along you are entitled to whatever preference you desire, and yet you argued in MS's honour like your fighting some crusade. You are unable to accept that a large section of the market place has rejected Vista as a poor value for money option for reason which they have outlined to you. You've felt threatened by such opinion and felt hell bend on justifying your cause to myself and other contributors. The only problem being you have never been able to offer reasoning more substantial than "We just like it".

Quoting Me In Oz:
I has it's issues, but hey, they all do.

you had, what?




Quoting Me In Oz:
You, though, seem to have a genuine hatred of MS as a whole, not just Vista.

I have a definite distaste for MS business practices, and I have outlined why. As I have outlined why I will and will not use MS product as appropriate.


Quoting Me In Oz:
You have admitted to earning a living off MS and it's offsprings so you should not complain too much."

I have made no such admission. I earn from sale of my own skills, products, an abilities. I will put forward MS product when it is appropriate, and will recommend against it when their are better alternatives. Without exception I have found XP to be a better fit to customer need than Vista, and have never once seen a situation where a Vista installation offered better value for money. And yet MS see it as in their interest to make access to XP increasingly more difficult.



Quoting Me In Oz:
here endeth the lesson

does that mean you'll hush now? You an the millions of other happily oblivious zombie clickers that are to accept whatever is dished up, without question or consideration?
You are entitled to favour whatever you please, just please if you wish to contribute, try to explain at least a few reasons why, and try to grasp that what works for you may not be a one size fits all.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raingdog:
Simple is definitely your strong suite.

Seems it's the only way to communicate with you.

Quoting Raindog:
Who is OUR?

Everyone who is happy with their purchase and flexibility of Vista.

Quoting Raindog:
But why do you like it?

Go and read the Vista fanboy forums for my answer.

Quoting raindog:
they really do need to explain.

I don't see this as a requirement by APC forum rules !

Quoting raindog:
a large section of the market place has rejected Vista

OPINION !
Quoting Raindog:
I have a definite distaste for MS

Really ! You hide it so well !

Quoting Raindog:
does that mean you'll hush now?

You wish ! ............. You keep supplying the ammo and the whole store here will pitch in to keep this thread going .... We want the laughs :)

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Me In Oz:
You wish ! ............. You keep supplying the ammo and the whole store here will pitch in to keep this thread going .... We want the laughs :)

We've got him on the radar here too ! .... This guy's Gold :D

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me in Oz:
and the whole store here will pitch i

that is truly sad.. :>


Quoting CBR1100XX:
We've got him on the radar here too

You will find you are confusing reality with one of your shoot-em-up games again.

Quoting CBR1100XX:
This guy's Gold

Winning gold was easy, no real competition.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
may not be a one size fits all.

That's the MS conundrum. Their strategy is just the exact opposite, they are trying to make products that suit the masses. And if 20% of the users out find that it doesn't suit them, well ! There is still 80% that do ! If you cannot recognise that, Raindog than you deserve all the MS fanboy backlash you get !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
That's the MS conundrum.

It is?


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Their strategy is just the exact opposite

It is?


Quoting CBR1100XX:
they are trying to make products that suit the masses

and failing almost every sector!


Quoting CBR1100XX:
And if 20% of the users out find that it doesn't suit them, well ! There is still 80% that do !

20%/80% now there is a randomly conceived split! Now do we believe you or direct quotations from HP sales dept? Can you guess which party is full of it?


Quoting CBR1100XX:
If you cannot recognise that, Raindog

I recognise fan-boy spin before its even crosses the horizon.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
all the MS fanboy backlash you get

ooh aaah, angry junior retail sales assistants. Pardon me if I've forgotten to quake in fear, it's just I was so busy laughing at all your posturing. :>

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
and failing almost every sector!
OPINION ...... MS accounting still can't take the cash to the bank quick enough !
Quoting Raindog:
Now do we believe you or direct quotations from HP sales dept?
HP figures relate to HP sales ... NOT all retailers !
Quoting Raindog:
I recognise fan-boy spin before its even crosses the horizon.
And yet you still spend hours replying and defending your anti-MS stance !
So who's gullible now ?
Quoting Raindog:
ooh aaah, angry junior retail sales assistants.
You're falling into what you hate most ..... Again ! OPINION
Quoting Raindog:
it's just I was so busy laughing
Yes ! But it's a nervous laughter :)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
Now do we believe you or direct quotations from HP sales dept?

Your double standards are now very obvious !
You find no problems blindly believing a report posted by APC relating to figures released by a megacorporation (Like HP, MS, Apple, Telstra etc) .... and yet you will read through, and respond to over a 100 posts by fanboys to refute their every OPINION !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Your double standards are now very obvious !

What is obvious to you, via your bizarre reasoning, does not correlate to any actual double standard on my part.


Quoting Me In Oz:
You find no problems blindly believing a report posted by APC relating to figures released by a megacorporation (Like HP, MS, Apple, Telstra etc) .

Yes, I do not have a trouble believing these particular quotations from HP, they align closely with my own experiences and with material I have read elsewhere. Are you suggesting deliberate inaccuracy on by Dan Warne or APC? Do you question the HP statements? If so, by what basis do you refute these claims? If you have nothing to back up your suggestions then it is patently obvious that it is "Me in Oz" that wins the "blindly" tag.

Quoting Me In Oz:
and yet you will read through, and respond to over a 100 posts by fanboys to refute their every OPINION !

I've questioned these opinions as you call them, asked for the reasoning behind such opinions, none of which have been forthcoming.

Team fan-boy is keen to shout down anything that does not align with their gamer mindset and demonstrates immense insecurity in its choices.
I have stated reasons for a preference towards the older MS operating system and asked for situations where Vista would offer an advantage. As yet there has been little or nothing put forward to justify a Vista selection. The Fan-boy rants, blind faith and name calling, are simply reinforcing the belief that MS has lost it's way.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
they align closely with my own experiences
Experiences or bigotry ?
Quoting Raindog:
Are you suggesting deliberate inaccuracy on by Dan Warne or APC?
Not all out lies, No !
But certainly sensationalist reportage to draw comments !
Here is an example ..... "Ubuntu 8.04, Windows Killer?" ... APC just love the "Killer" tag !
Quoting Raindog:
Do you question the HP statements?
... I've yet to see any concrete sales dockets from HP !
Do you question telstra, Apple, Optus ?
Quoting Raindog:
I've questioned these opinions as you call them, asked for the reasoning behind such opinions, none of which have been forthcoming.
That's because no one HAS to answer them.
Quoting Raindog:
The Fan-boy rants, blind faith and name calling, are simply reinforcing the belief that MS has lost it's way.
Fanboy rants and anti-MS bigotry will NEVER alter MS business strategies. Do you really think that MS and Apple and any other will listen to hacks like you and me ?

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Experiences or bigotry ?

Experiences! Wasn't that the word that I wrote?


Quoting Me In Oz:
But certainly sensationalist reportage to draw comments !

OK if you wish to claim that "XP still killing Vista in Sales" as sensationalism, then where is your substantiation for saying so? Without it your contrary opinion has much less cred than that of employed scribes or corporate representatives.


Quoting Me In Oz:
I've yet to see any concrete sales dockets from HP !

you seen approved public statements from an authorised company representative. To effectively contradict their words you need to put forward evidence to substantiate errors in their statement.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Do you question telstra, Apple, Optus ?

Sure do! I find it good practice to question everything.


Quoting Me In Oz:
That's because no one HAS to answer them

Then you will not mind me shooting such statements down as nothing more than fan-boy banter.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Do you really think that MS and Apple and any other will listen to hacks like you and me ?

So what you are saying is you put forward your opinion in the steadfast belief hat no-one will take any notice of it? What would be your reasoning for such a pursuit? more. If you feel no-one is listening to you, then perhaps you have nothing to say.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
statements from an authorised company representative.

So therefore you take it as gospel and not propaganda.
You really are gullible then !

Quoting Raindog:
Then you will not mind me shooting such statements down as nothing more than fan-boy banter.

You have yet posted anything that can be proven or substantiated.
So by your reasoning, we'll be refuting your statements as anti-MS banter !
Quoting Raindog:
If you feel no-one is listening to you, then perhaps you have nothing to say.

It would seem that at least you are paying close attention to my every word :)

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
I do not have a trouble believing these particular quotations from HP !

Here is your very first post ....
" .. for those who are willing to be led."

So what is it Raindog ? Are you a rebel without a cause or just part of the crowd ?

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Here is your very first post

To be more correct that was my first post in this thread. Just one of many posts you have been unable to refute or disprove. :>


Quoting CBR1100XX:
So what is it Raindog ?

So what is what? You are the one grasping to defend a position you tell me what you think IT is.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Are you a rebel without a cause or just part of the crowd ?


Why I understand you being in awe with who I am , you will have to live with your assumptions.

Your desperate attempts to find flaw with my arguments have just exposed more of your foolishness and inability. Each new attempt to disparage or defame by you, shows your perpetual desperation and lack of grasp.

Your inability to present even a single plus for Vista has you on a hiding to nothing, you attempts at personal denigration have left you as the target for public humiliation.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
To be more correct that was my first post in this thread. Just one of many posts you have been unable to refute or disprove.

This has not been our goal ! Our goal is to show you up for the MS Bigot that you are. And so far it's working a treat !

Quoting Raindog:
you tell me what you think IT is.

IT is ... that you're just another loudmouth in the crowd !

Quoting Raindog:
Why I understand you being in awe with who I am

Relapsing into your Clark Kent syndrome again ?

Quoting Raindog:
have just exposed more of your foolishness and inability

OPINION again, Raindog ?


Quoting Raindog:
you attempts at personal denigration have left you as the target for public humiliation.

Target ? I don't don't see many CBR1100XX bashing posts other than your feeble attempts.

I would gladly suffer it just to show that you are an anti-MS stooge with nothing to say but unsubstantiated diatribe wrapped up in the cloak of a 'conscientious objector'

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
I don't don't see many CBR1100XX bashing post

You flatter yourself, your just not important enough. :>

Quoting CBR1100XX:
I would gladly suffer

Is that why you paid full retail for Vista?



Quoting CBR1100XX:
with nothing to say but unsubstantiated

but I have substantiated my reasons for disliking Vista, reasons why MS has lost its way with windows. Where as team fan-boy in its entirety has been unable to state a single plus for Vista. Hell you don't even know Vista's good points, I do!

So bike boy if your mission was to show up anyone but your self, then your contribution can be noted against your list of other personal failures.

You can name call all you like but unless you can contribute even one small item to substantiate your case, then it is you and team fan-boy that appear as fools. :>

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
your just not important enough.

Important enough for you, at least, to keep responding. And that's what matters :)
Quoting Raindog:
Is that why you paid full retail for Vista?
No ! OEM pricing :)

Quoting Raindog:
against your list of other personal failures.

... according to Raindog ...... Again unfounded OPINION !

Quoting Raindog:
then it is you and team fan-boy that appear as fools.

You keep thinking that if it will assuage your dysfunctional ego and keep you away from society :)

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
Team fan-boy is keen to shout down anything that does not align with their gamer mindset and demonstrates immense insecurity in its choices.

The opposite seems to be true !
The fanboys are happy with their choice and have not felt the need to justify or defend it !
You, on the other hand, have spent your time on this thread 'demanding' why. And until it becomes mandatory on the APC forums to justify all the posts, your 'demands' will go unanswered :)

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
Fair enough? But why do you like it?

It's like conversing with a housebrick !
But I'll reiterate ...................
We don't have to justify our choice. The people who continually defend their choices are the ones who have issues with their poor selection !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
It's like conversing with a housebrick !

You do this often? Talk to masonry? Average Joe and his pet brick.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
But I'll reiterate ...................

Are you talking to me or the brick?

Quoting Your Average Joe:
We don't have to justify our choice.

No you don't, and it looks like you would be in real trouble if ever you had to, because as yet not one of you has come up with an even half way decent reason anyone would select vista ahead of a preloaded copy of XP.

Quoting Your Average Joe:
The people who continually defend their choices are the ones who have issues with their poor selection !

Uh huh, would that be like, say um, those who insist Vista is the way to go because they just like it? Those kinda people?

I am not defending a position I've simply asked for reasons why I would select Vista, with the only answers in 100 odd, (some very odd) replies being, a) we just like it, and b) well you have to anyway because MS don't want to sell the product of preference.

Unlike your good selves I do often have to justify selections I make to and for customers.
A lot of young lads defending Vista almost to the death and yet none of them seam to know why they are doing it. Balmer must be very proud. :>

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
Are you talking to me or the brick?

Is there a distinction ?
Oh ! Apologies to the brick :)

Quoting Raindog:
Unlike your good selves I do often have to justify selections I make to and for customers.

So what's the sales pitch ?
"I hate Microsoft and so should you"

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
So what's the sales pitch ?
"I hate Microsoft and so should you"


I think Raindog might be referring to after sales, not before. And he was probably also referring to justifying Vista over XP.
Vista in certain situations is NOT a good idea. One of my clients that ignored my advice is finding that out now. Good for me though I guess since they keep calling me in to do stuff ;-)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
Good for me though I guess since they keep calling me in to do stuff ;-)
After sales support ! You gotta love the bread and butter income ;)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
I think Raindog might be referring to after sales, not before. And he was probably also referring to justifying Vista over XP.

Not just after sales service, it's the perennial customer question, they are aware of Vista, they have suffered the pain of previous migrations, their kid has vista on some notebook they bought him on an impulse (and he seems happy), so they ask the "should we go Vista?" question. It's at that point you have to weigh up the for's and the againsts and look at what an upgrade will achieve, which can be a negative or a positive outcome.

I've yet to see any real advantage offered to anyone other than system admins in a Vista upgrade, and that in itself is a hiding to nothing to even suggest.


Quoting Tin:
Vista in certain situations is NOT a good idea.

There are a lot of those certain situations, I'd suggest it was almost every situation.


Quoting Tin:
One of my clients that ignored my advice is finding that out now.

Which would not be such a comfortable situation had you been the one pushing for the upgrade, having done so just on the basis of "its new".

Quoting Tin:
Good for me though I guess since they keep calling me in to do stuff

Exactly. The simple reality that slipping Vista boxes into existing networks is a "right royal PITA" ensures plenty of after sales work. But increasing the IT spend for little if any real advantage, can bring about a whole mess load of budget scrutiny which does not always end up as the best result for IT staff or contractors.

Business wise there is little problem at present, I've no problem sourcing the Versions of Windows I need, and if Microsoft wishes to claim that as a vista sale then good luck to them. After all the only ones MS are fooling are their own market research people.

But if Microsoft wish to enforce a situation where change for changes sake becomes essential then evaluation of that same change opens up consideration for Apple and Linux alternatives. Simple as that.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
But if Microsoft wish to enforce a situation where change for changes sake becomes essential then evaluation of that same change opens up consideration for Apple and Linux alternatives. Simple as that.

This is the most credible comment you have posted !
If you don't like Microsoft's products and/or business ethos than don't use it ! Go to Linux and Apple ! Stop using it and stop whining like a schoolgirl about it's shortcomings ! It's as simple as that !

Vista was never going to rule the world. It was/is a stepping stone to something better. As was all the previous releases. In our (MS Fanboys) opinion, it suits all our work and play needs and we consider it a step forward from XP ! If you want the details of why, just visit any MS fanboy and gaming site :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
This is the most credible comment you have posted !

It is simply one of the many credible things I have posted. :> Whether it is the most credible is really up to personal interpretation.


Quoting Me In Oz:
If you don't like Microsoft's products and/or business ethos than don't use it !

I often don't. And thankfully it is becoming easier not to. But I will use whatever product best suits the task at my choice not yours. And I will be critical of whatever weaknesses of whatever OS I damn well choose.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Stop using it and stop whining like a schoolgirl about it's shortcomings !

So you are aware of the many short comings then? And you'd prefer "mine's better than yours" style static to critical evaluation.


Quoting Me In Oz:
It's as simple as that !

What is simple? Other than fan-boy reasoning?


Quoting Me In Oz:
Vista was never going to rule the world.

No not without regular reboots, and 100's of critical security patches it wont.


Quoting Me In Oz:
It was/is a stepping stone to something better.

They just spent how much for a stepping stone. Someone had better tell MS marketing they are overplaying their card.


Quoting Me In Oz:
It was/is a stepping stone to something better.

And you have to giggle when that something better ends up being OS X or Nix.


Quoting Me In Oz:
As was all the previous releases.

No MS at times have had releases that offered much more than a GUI rework and a demand for more PC horsepower.


Quoting Me In Oz:
In our (MS Fanboys) opinion, it suits all our work and play needs and we consider it a step forward from XP !

And in your fan-boy opinions you also believe that you represent the entire marketplace rather than just the idiot fringe.


Quoting Me In Oz:
If you want the details

reasoned and credible statements and argument would be constructive.


Quoting Me In Oz:
just visit any MS fanboy and gaming site


No thanks. Why would I need to do that, when you see fit to drag the evangelisation of water cooled blue leds and crap OS upgrades right here to me. :>

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
So you are aware of the many short comings then?

Yes ! and we're still happy with it :)

Quoting Raindog:
They just spent how much for a stepping stone.

They still have craploads more :)

Quoting Raindog:
And you have to giggle when that something better ends up being OS X or Nix.

Not for the dedicated fanboys :)

Quoting Raindog:
And in your fan-boy opinions you also believe that you represent the entire marketplace

No ! Just the majority :)

Quoting Raindog:
reasoned and credible statements and argument would be constructive.

Why ? This is much more fun :)

Quoting Raindog:
No thanks. Why would I need to do that, when you see fit to drag the evangelisation of water cooled blue leds and crap OS upgrades right here to me.

..... In the hope you will learn something ! But again, this is only my OPINION :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Yes ! and we're still happy with it :)

Mediocrity may well suit you, to pay more for less, ignorance like that must be a marketers dream.



Quoting Me In Oz:
They still have craploads more

As usual you have missed the message in its entirety. If the the best a company can deliver for such massive investment is a revised GUI then it has lost its way. Vista adds a bus load of new problems to go along with the perpetually unsolved windows problems with MS being unable to correct these.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Not for the dedicated fanboys

Yes you zombie clickers are nothing if not dedicated. Who else would be prepared to spend up big to to achieve the same mediocrity on fatter hardware and enjoy doing so?


Quoting Me In Oz:
No ! Just the majority

Which majority are you referencing? The Majority of fan boys that frequent Yum Cha Clone Computers Inc. Your delusion has robbed you of any ability to comprehend even simple realities.



Quoting Me In Oz:
Why ? This is much more fun

If you find being made to look the fool such fun, I'm oblige and point out your stupidity whenever time is available to do so.


Quoting Me In Oz:
..... In the hope you will learn something !

Oh I learn new things every day, even from the likes of you. You've shown me that your ignorance can be truly limitless.


Quoting Me In Oz:
But again, this is only my OPINION :)

Your parents must be very proud. :>

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
ignorance like that must be a marketers dream.

It is ! and it's what keeps the IT industry going round. Business like ours thrive on it !

Quoting Raindog:
Unable ? or Unwilling !
You are seriously naiive to think MS doesn't have the resources to 'fix' Vista

Quoting Raindog:
same mediocrity on fatter hardware and enjoy doing so?

Again, our business just love the continual upgade path :)
And as users we love to keep up with the Jones' !

Quoting Raindog:
Which majority are you referencing?

The MS Fanclub :)

Quoting Raindog:
whenever time is available to do so

You seem to have plenty ............... as a guru developer

Quoting Raindog:
You've shown me that your ignorance can be truly limitless.

....... From both sides of the fence !

Quoting Raindog:
Your parents must be very proud

They are :)

Quoting Raindog:
The Majority of fan boys that frequent Yum Cha Clone Computers Inc.

This is genuinely funny !
At the very least, you are starting to get a sense of humour :)

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
Vista adds a bus load of new problems to go along with the perpetually unsolved windows problems with MS being unable to correct these.

Your passionate belief in this statement and personal crusade against the evil Microsoft has turned you into quite a blithering idiot, oblivious to the staggering market share MS holds (so they must be doing something right)

Have you sat down and thought about why Vista's SP1 was such a minimal operational patch ? .... Could it be that there wasn't that much wrong with it in the first place.

Take your anti-MS hat off and just accept that there is a MAJORITY of pc users out there who like MS products and will continue to use MS products because it suits them.

How about I pass along all your bigoted comments to the MS marketing department and we'll see if your diatribe has any effect on their R&D strategies.

Quoting Raindog:
If you find being made to look the fool

An introspective assessment will find the same conclusion Raindog !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
oblivious to the staggering market share MS holds

Is market share license for producing poor product? Doesn't look like market share will continue. Any oblivion is your own, as you dismiss the march of non MS alternatives.
Quoting Your Average Joe:
(so they must be doing something right)

Critical analysis would show that doing something right may not relate to the last versions of windows.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
Have you sat down and thought

I can think standing up too, and walk and chew gum. People like me do not depend on endless wizards and nanny prompts just to run an OS. Don't need a marketing dept to tell me what is and isn't good.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
and thought about why Vista's SP1 was such a minimal operational patch ?

mostly because it has left many of the Vista issues still unresolved. next question.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
Could it be that there wasn't that much wrong with it in the first place.

definitely not! Could it be it was a marketing rushed release, to attempt to lure some of those many conservative buyers who wait to avoid the inevitable stuff ups when MS Beta a new product on the market.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
there is a MAJORITY of pc users out there

Yes there are a majority of user running Windows.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
out there who like MS products and will continue to use MS products because it suits them.


It's critical mass! Your mistake is assuming that using a PC automatically establishes a like for MS product. It does not! More to the point your whiny little rant entirely misses the topic of this thread and deliberately ignores the reality that the majority of those same Windows user would prefer to continue running their current OS without having to endure the pain that a Vista migration will bring.

Quoting Your Average Joe:
How about I pass along all your bigoted comments to the MS marketing department

If you wish, make sure you write it using your newest crayon.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
has any effect on their R&D strategies.

MS can ignore the marketplace at their own peril.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
make sure you write it using your newest crayon.
I will ! Just so you can feel more comfortable reading it !

You do have a sense of humour LOL :D

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
You do have a sense of humour

I have to, customers are often stupid too.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
I have to, customers are often stupid too.

That's what the IT industry counts on ;-)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
That's what the IT industry counts on


Only the industry player that are destined to go the way of the Dodo. The curious thing is, if you fan-boys are so in touch with some industry policy to dish out any old tat by tarting up its GUI, then why the hell would you pay top dollar for that tat? Oh yeah like you said "You just like it". Fools and their money. :>

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
Only the industry player that are destined to go the way of the Dodo.

Your dogma seems too altruistic. Which is fine if you live in Utopia but in the real world companies like MS, Apple, Telstra, Ford, Holden and a million others do very well from the 'stupid' customers. Otherwise why would you take your car in to a dealer for a service, why have IT support and why keep updating a product that has been tried ans tested in a market. It may be morally offensive to you, Raindog but it's what makes capitalism thrive.

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
why have IT support

Why have bus drivers? Why have fire fighters? Because not everyone is trained to perform some tasks, or sometimes they just don't have time for it.

Quoting Your Average Joe:
why keep updating a product that has been tried ans tested in a market

Generally, in businesses, only because some other product required updating for reasons beyond the control of management. Tax law changes requiring updates to accounting packages for example... If the new package doesn't run on Win98, then you have to buy a new OS.

You are correct that stupid people are continuing the monopolies of Telstra and the likes... But even the most stupid are starting to see Telstra, Microsoft, etc for what they are.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Tin:

Why have bus drivers? Why have fire fighters?



You're using very specific examples, Tin !

I'm talking about companies factoring the 'stupid' factor into their marketing, like ....

-Holden still advertising 6 litre commodores

-Apple selling truckloads of iPhones, which does some things your mobile and laptop does .... on a 4" screen WOW

-Sony HD movies on PSP

-People buying 50" Plasma TV's for a 2 x 3 metre lounge

-Sparkies providing a light-bulb changing service (yes ! there is one here in Brisbane)

.... This list is endless ! And it's great for a capitalist world :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
-Sparkies providing a light-bulb changing service (yes ! there is one here in Brisbane)

Brisbane now has a light bulb? Progress eh. :>

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Your dogma seems too altruistic.

What things seem to you is far from reality.

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Which is fine if you live in Utopia

Isn't Utopia the place where "we just like it"?


Quoting Your Average Joe:
but in the real world

what qualifies you to state what happens here?

Quoting Your Average Joe:
companies like MS, Apple, Telstra, Ford, Holden and a million others do very well from the 'stupid' customers.

Is that why Ford & GM posted record annual losses?



Quoting Your Average Joe:
Otherwise why would you take your car in to a dealer for a service

Warranty perhaps?



Quoting Your Average Joe:
why have IT support

To solve all the issues you stupid people have (or create) for one.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
and why keep updating a product that has been tried ans tested in a market.

The jury is still out on whether or not Vista is actually an update. Updates usually entail fixes improvements and actual features. Thus far in this thread no one has been able to actually state a worthwhile feature upgrade or fix that Vista has delivered.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
It may be morally offensive to you,

Morally offensive? Do you actually thing about the garbage your typing or is this the result of some tick or twitch? It may well be the first case of typed tourette's syndrome recorded. :>


Quoting Your Average Joe:
but it's what makes capitalism thrive.

Capitalism 101 will tell you that no business ever thrived by ignoring it's marketplace. You are just going to have try harder AJ, your failing to grasp even basic concepts of trade. :>

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Raindog:
what qualifies you to state what happens here?

I live in it ....... try it sometime :)

Raindog:
Is that why Ford & GM posted record annual losses?

Have you heard about the state of the global economy and the price of oil ?. Nothing to do with 'stupid' people ! 'stupid' people are still buying 6 litre SS Commodores !

Raindog:
Warranty perhaps?

Warranty servicing is enforced by the manufacturers.
Think outside the box Raindog !

Raindog:
why have IT support
To solve all the issues you stupid people have (or create) for one.

Isn't this what I posted ?

Raindog:
It may well be the first case of typed tourette's syndrome recorded.

You're losing your sense of humour again. You're just sounding angry again :)

Raindog:
your failing to grasp even basic concepts of trade.

I will hope my company models itself on the MS and Telstra ethos .... Both seem to be doing quite well :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Nothing to do with 'stupid' people ! 'stupid' people are still buying 6 litre SS Commodores !

You contradict yourself, before you've even finished your sentence. :>

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Warranty servicing is enforced by the manufacturers.
Think outside the box Raindog !

Which box is that? The box that would have you paying thousands for something you could have had for nothing. Me thinks you had that thought from inside "the stupid box".

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Isn't this what I posted ?

No!


Quoting Your Average Joe:
You're losing your sense of humour again. You're just sounding angry again

Any inability to comprehend on your part, in no way diminishes my sense of humour. :>


Quoting Your Average Joe:
I will hope my company models itself on the MS and Telstra ethos .... Both seem to be doing quite well

You wish to model a business on bloated organisations that have lost their way. At least those organisations have the capital reserves to die a slow death. That business 101 course might be to your advantage, contact your nearest TAFE, you may even learn something. But no promises, it's obvious it will be an uphill task.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
You wish to model a business on bloated organisations that have lost their way.
You have inside info that can confirm this ?
Again .... Both seem to be doing quite well !

Quoting Raindog:
Any inability to comprehend on your part

Yes ! very difficukt to comprehend someone like you, Raindog.

Quoting Raindog:
Which box is that? ......... "the stupid box"

That's exactly what I meant ?

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
You have inside info that can confirm this ?

Yup, in one case I do.


Quoting Your Average Joe:
Again .... Both seem to be doing quite well !

if you say so...


Quoting Your Average Joe:
Yes ! very difficukt(sic) to comprehend someone like you, Raindog.

Like I said it's you with the inability, others have little problem with simple concepts. :>




Quoting Your Average Joe:
That's exactly what I meant ?

You meant to be stupid? figures! :>

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Raindog:
why have IT support
To solve all the issues you stupid people have (or create) for one.

Isn't this what I posted ?

Yeah ! His dimwittedness has no bounds !
We may have to use crayons for him !

He does love to cite 3 words out of context from a whole paragraph to parody others ! A sure sign of someone with no intellectual originality !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
He does love to cite 3 words out of context from a whole paragraph to parody others !

There is lots to parody!



Quoting CBR1100XX:
A sure sign of

You wouldn't know a sure sign if it bit you on the elbow. :>

Wilst it's evjoyable watching you make a monkey of yourself trying to upset me, you've never been effective. If you'd put that same effort into educating yourself you'd maybe have had something to say on the topic.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
trying to upset me, you've never been effective.

Oh yes it has ! Why else would you dedicate so much time to a bunch of known fanboys :P

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
trying to upset me, you've never been effective

Oh yes we have ! Every response you make to the known fanboy comments just re-enforces the fact that you are going to lose sleep thinking of more retorts for tomorrow :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Oh yes we have !

Oh no you haven't :> (in the true spirit of music hall pantomime)


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Every response you make to the known fanboy comments just re-enforces the fact that you are going to lose sleep thinking of more retorts for tomorrow

It may surprise you to realise that it only takes seconds to pull some fan-boy chain. You and your roach mates exist in a mistaken belief of your own self importance.

Have you found any pro vista argument to contribute or are you going to perpetually squirm in your own inability, failure and insignificance?

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
mistaken belief of your own self importance.

Hardly mistaken ! Important enough for you Raindog.

Quoting Raindog:
to pull some fan-boy chain.

Seems yours is just as flexible

Quoting Raindog:
perpetually squirm in your own inability, failure and insignificance?

Raindog's singular deluded opinion again, founded upon .... ... Tsk Tsk Tsk

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Hardly mistaken ! Important enough for you Raindog.

No your not important at all, but I an equal opportunities kind of guy, I point out the stupidity of the unimportant too.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Seems yours is just as flexible

I have many good points :>


Quoting CBR1100XX:
founded upon ....


opinion founded on you numerous semi literate blunders, contradictions and stupidities. The evidence is visible for all to see.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
The evidence is visible for all to see.

Than why do you find it so difficult to grasp ?
Man ! You are so gullible !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
Than why do you find it so difficult to grasp ?

Then why can't you compose a sentence? Or use a spell and grammar checker? Why are your pleas so desperate? Why do you consider you contribute? So many more questions you do not have answers for. :>

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
So many more questions you do not have answers for
........ And which will never be provided by you !

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
The evidence is visible for all to see.

Then why can't you ?
Man ! You really are gullible !

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
What Raindog would like
....... And what happens in the real world are 2 completely different things !

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

Quoting Aubrey:
Oh, I nearly forgot: Linux rox! Windoze sux! (just something for Me In Oz to respond to, you understand.)

Got my popcorn ready and can't wait for round 2 !
Seems Raindog has some tag team support :)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Aubrey:
If I was a betting man, I'd love to put some money on a trifecta of:

1) XP still being sold on retail machines for Xmas 2008 and still outselling Vista
2) Balmer gone before Xmas;
3) Massive price drop on retail Vista (cheaper than XP).

I'd give you ....
1)Even money
2)100 to 1 he gets fired and 3 to 1 he quits
3)1000 to 1

Quoting Aubrey:
Oh, I nearly forgot: Linux rox! Windoze sux! (just something for Me In Oz to respond to, you understand.)

Everyone's OPINION is valid Aubrey ..... Raindog just can't grasp this concept and has ordained himself the forum conscience and moderator.
And as for jousting with you ? It's no fun to poke at educated people with a sense of humour. It can only result in stalemate :)

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

I agree on those odds... Only thing propping up Ballmer from getting fired is his stake in the company.
Ballmer needs to go. But if he does, I for one hope they replace him with someone that sees that not everyone wants MS products and that's just something they have to deal with.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Tin:
I for one hope they replace him

You're not the only one !
Even the staunchest MS fanboy thinks that Ballmer was one of Microsoft's lamest appointments. What the hell was Bill and Co. thinking ? The MS PR and Marketing department have been trying to recover ever since !

OMG !!!! ....... I think I just agreed with you, Tin ;)

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Aubrey:
MS has already relented in the netbook market on its "No More XP" policy.

Hardly relented ! A cut down version of XP is the only viable option for 'netbooks' because they don't have the hardware punch to run all the Vista eye-candy. And let's face it, MS is still making money from an OS licence that was released 7 years ago. Pretty good economic sense, don't you think ?

Tin (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Hardly relented!
Quoting CBR1100XX:
MS is still making money from an OS licence that was released 7 years ago.

I'm confused... Which side are you arguing? Or are you so blinded by MS marketing that you can't see what you just said...

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Tin:
I'm confused...

You're painting a target on your back here ;)

Quoting Tin:
Which side are you arguing?

I have not taken sides ........ other than against Raindog !
I'm not an XP vs Vista commando. But I am sick of the anti-MS propaganda. They are a company that makes a crapload of money. They are genuinely trying to make better products (sometimes they fail).
I applaud their marketing department. Even with all the anti-MS BS in the world, they are still going strong. And unless you actually work for Microsoft at the upper levels, your anti-MS ranting will not be valid (although you are allowed to express them). I wish our company had the marketing balls that is the Microsoft juggernaut !

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

Quoting Aubrey:
have to admit, I have never used Vista
So your comments and criticisms are irrelevant !

Aubrey (Advanced member):

Quoting plutonium210:
So your comments and criticisms are irrelevant !

I don't think I have ever criticised Vista (or XP) in any absolute sense.

I certainly do believe that relative to many Linux distros, they are crippled, resource-hungry and insecure - but that is a "core" issue more to do with the proprietary nature of the OS and the fact that it is striving to be "for everyone" - not an issue that is relevant to particular flavours.

This thread was about a market and marketing issue anyway, not the actual merits of the OS. By any measure, Vista has failed in the market despite the hundreds of millions of dollars spent by MS. Most of their decisions lately indicate a company in retreat and regrouping for another assault with Windows 7.

I am realist enough to know that all this hardly matters except at the margins. MS has the cash reserves to ride out the occasional massive failure and a combination of their enormous market power and the inertia of regular users and corporates will see no mass exodus to Linux or Apple. However it would (IMO) be a Very Good Thing for all computer users if MS was shaken up just a little and realised that the quality of its offerings is important to a least a segment of the market.

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

There is no sarcasm intended .....
Thanks for an oustanding and intelligent argument Aubrey. You've hit it within 3 paragraphs !
Quoting Aubrey:
MS has the cash reserves to ride out the occasional massive failure
Windows Me comes readily to mind !

Quoting Aubrey:
Vista has failed in the market
I probably wouldn't go that far but yes, It has been fighting a good OS (XP) and bad PR since it's conception !

Quoting Aubrey:
regular users and corporates will see no mass exodus to Linux or Apple.
No mass exodus but the bean counters are surely keeping a close eye on the Apple (as they have always done). Linux is a different beast altogether. People in any camp will fiddle with Linux because that's just part of being a computer geek (me being one too).

Quote Aubrey:
MS was shaken up just a little !

This is a good thing and I'm the upper echelon at MS are aware of the opinions and strategies that are pointed at them. It is natural to feel superior and complacent when your market share is so huge. It is their arrogance that the PR people have to contend with, not the R&D (IMHO)

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting plutonium210:
So your comments and criticisms are irrelevant !

Relevant, Irrelevant
valid, invalid
Dumb, inttelligent
Opinion or fact ............ It doesn't matter !
This is an unmoderated forum for comments (opinions) on news items !
If you desire moderated and censored forum, go to www.abc.net.au

AtticusFinch (User):

I can see Raindog's view:
Not many informative contributions here, fanboys !

I can understand the Fanboy's view:
You'll just have to tolerate (I didn't say 'accept') other's views (right or wrong), Raindog !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting AtticusFinch:
You'll just have to tolerate (I didn't say 'accept') other's views (right or wrong), Raindog !

I'm always tolerant of those less capable. :> I've even asked them to put forward evidence to support their stance. Tolerant! eh!

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

This a great evening read. I'm lovin' it.
And as an Apple fanboy observer.
Raindog ! You've got to get a sense of humour. Your posts are just jaded pedantic responses with a splashing of name calling.
Fanboys ! You've gotta get something better than "We love it, go and get stuffed!"

I've sent this thread to a bunch of my friends, and I can tell you it certainly is a talking point in the office during breaks.

Keep it up guys LOL

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting plutonium210:
And as an Apple fanboy observer.

yes sadness does take many forms.

Quoting plutonium210:
Raindog ! You've got to get a sense of humour.

Now I haven't got to get anything and especially not to satisfy your latest whim.


Quoting plutonium210:
with a splashing of name calling.

Now I haven't been calling the stupid people names, I've just been reminding them of their own ineptitude.


Quoting plutonium210:
I've sent this thread to a bunch of my friends, and I can tell you it certainly is a talking point in the office during breaks.

Exciting workplace you have there, I guess the thrills never cease.


Quoting plutonium210:
Keep it up guys

Well I can keep asking them for some plus points on Vista but ater this many replies coming up empty, it looks like the pro vista camp are looking for their towel. :>

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
yes sadness does take many forms.
Including jaded self employed developers.

Quoting Raindog:
Now I haven't got to get anything and especially not to satisfy your latest whim.

No you don't ! But here's a tip, it helps you intergrate into society.

Quoting Raindog:
I've just been reminding them of their own ineptitude.

.... and highlighting your bigotry and unfounded opinions.

Quoting Raindog:
Exciting workplace you have there, I guess the thrills never cease.

Only since you have contributed :)

Quoting Raindog:
it looks like the pro vista camp are looking for their towel.

After nearly 150 posts ? I hope not :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting plutonium210:
But here's a tip

just not a particulary useful one!
I'd rather not integrate with the mass un-thinking thanks all the same.


Quoting plutonium210:
.... and highlighting your bigotry and unfounded opinions.

I have provided evidence for any claim I have made, attempts to dispute without reason are nothing but static.

Quoting plutonium210:
After nearly 150 posts ?

And not one of those posts was able to outline any positive attribute of Vista over XP. Are those the kinds of folks you'd wish to integrate with?

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
I'd rather not integrate with the mass un-thinking thanks all the same.

You're right ! You certainly don't play well with the other children.

Quoting Raindog:
I have provided evidence for any claim I have made

We don't see any evidence of any claim you have made, other than your lame narratives ..... you're not suggesting we trust your word, do you ? That certainly would be abhorrant to Raindog !

Quoting Raindog:
And not one of those posts was able to outline any positive attribute of Vista over XP

Over 150 posts and you're still sprouting this inane request !
It is not a requirement by this forum to provide justification for opinions !
You really are dimwitted if you cannot grasp this policy.
Or in terms for Raindog to understand .... "Me no have to give reason" (written in crayon as you have suggested)

plutonium210 (Advanced member):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
You really are dimwitted

Probably not dimwitted because I assume he has an IQ of at least 50 (although his comments would make him borderline).
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just say he's pig-headed :)


Quoting CBR1100XX:
"Me no have to give reason" (written in crayon as you have suggested)

That really is Laugh Out Loud Funny :D

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
You're right !

I'm always right, you should have grasped that by now.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
You certainly don't play well with the other children.


Could be because I am not a child.

Quoting CBR1100XX:
We don't see any evidence of any claim you have made

So your inept, why is should that be my problem?


Quoting CBR1100XX:
you're not suggesting we trust your word, do you ?

No I'm suggesting that you have nothing of value to contribute.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
That certainly would be abhorrant to Raindog !

Not abhorrent, I'd come to terms with the majority being, ignorant and easily led, years ago.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Over 150 posts and you're still sprouting this inane request !

150 posts and you have failed to contribute a single item of value.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
It is not a requirement by this forum to provide justification for opinions !

More is the pity. What is your purpose in presenting your fan-boy pap, is it to mask the insecurity in your own beliefs?


Quoting CBR1100XX:
if you cannot grasp this policy

Well here is a policy for you to grasp. "It is not a requirement of this forum for me or anyone else to accept fan boy pap without questioning its validity or politely pointing out the stupidity of the contributor."


Quoting CBR1100XX:
"Me no have to give reason"

Clearly you are are incapable of validation or even simple discussion of the very few thoughts you have managed. Are you capable of original thought or do you have to wait for one in the form of a hotfix?

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
I'm always right

Time for your medication again !

Quoting Raindog:
why is should that be my problem

Seems you have made it your personal dimwitted crusade

Quoting Raindog:
No I'm suggesting that you have nothing of value to contribute

Than why do you keep responding ?

Quoting Raindog:
What is your purpose in presenting your fan-boy pap,

To irritate Raindog. The penny hasn't dropped yet, has it :)

Quoting Raindog:
incapable of validation

Validation, justification, evidence, facts etc.
it's not incapable ......... it's just more fun to watch you take the hook, line and sinker :)

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
it's just more fun to watch you take the hook, line and sinker

Like shooting fish in a barrel !
If he wants validation, he is certainly validating the appropriateness of his avatar LOL

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Your Average Joe:
If he wants


What I would like is sensible reasoned contributions. But if pond life like yourself are incapable of this then it's nothing I will lose sleep over. You mistake my pointing out your ignorance with some belief I would be concerned with what you have to say. Your just not that important.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
Your just not that important.

It is quite obvious how important we are to you, Raindog :)

AtticusFinch (User):

Quoting Raindog:
I have provided evidence for any claim I have made,

This is not just directed at Raindog.

But I have yet to read any such evidence by you or anyone else, for that matter ! The Fanboys and you have not cited one reference to any of your 'claims'.
And it is a shame that it has turned to name calling because I was reading this as a light hearted banter with a smattering of poignant and valid opinions from all contributors.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting AtticusFinch:
This is not just directed at Raindog.

It certainly is directed at Raindog. Because the fanboys have celebrated the fact that they don't want to re-inforce any of their opinions with 'evidence' !

We just love screwing with his head :D

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
It certainly is directed at Raindog.

Yes you can exercise you ability to make monkeys of yourselves.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Because the fan-boys have celebrated the fact that they don't want to re-inforce any of their opinions with 'evidence' !

Celebrating your own ignorance, as a personal pursuit. That is useful how exactly?


Quoting CBR1100XX:
We just love screwing with

You really are clueless if you think you've spoiled my day. :>

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
That is useful how exactly?

It really makes us happy to annoy people like you, Raindog :D

Quoting Raindog:
You really are clueless if you think you've spoiled my day.

Our aim was never to spoil you day.
It was always about our right to self expression on this forum and if this annoyed you enough to respond to every 'fanboy' post ? ..... Well ! That's just a bonus :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting AtticusFinch:
This is not just directed at Raindog.

But I have yet to read any such evidence by you


There is presented, but it dissapears amidst the fanboy static. I have stated why I find Vista to be nothing but expensive and poor performing window dressing, and I offered the fan-boys every opportunity to explain why they would take a contary view.

Quoting AtticusFinch:
And it is a shame that it has turned to name calling because I was reading this as a light hearted banter with a smattering of poignant and valid opinions from all contributors.

It's a shame that noisy fan-boys see fit fill threads with nothing but garbage. But that's the joy of an open forum, the end result is that both you and I will look elsewhere for actual information, and the fan-boys will continue in noisy dillusion offering nothing but mindless unfounded opinion.

I wouldn't lose any sleep about it, I know I don't. I'm quite happy to point out the stupidity and inability of this noisy mass while ever it amuses me to do so.

Most will keep those poignant and valid opinions to themselves when this rabble appears. The rabble think they win all they attain is a perpetual aura of self ignorance.

Jesse Dorland (New user):

I actually called Sony, and I asked them if I would be listed as Vista users? They said yes. You see I bought a Sony laptop Vaio, and I have downgrade it to XP. Yet, Microsoft still considers me a "Vista users".

I was also told that if a person bought a computer with an operating sysytem, he/she would be part of that group regardles of whatever OS user install it on the machine. Another word, I am a Vista users even though I use Windows XP and Linux on my notebook!

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Jesse Dorland:
Microsoft still considers me a "Vista users".
No ! MS considers you are a purchaser and an owner of a Vista Licence !

Quoting Jesse Dorland:
he/she would be part of that group regardles of whatever OS user install it on the machine.

I see no problem in this claim.
Consider .................
-If you put a Holden motor in a Ford you bought ....... Ford still considers this a Ford sale.
-If you changed the OS in a PS3 (why would you?), would sony consider it as not a PS3 sale ? .............. etc.

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
No ! MS considers you are a purchaser and an owner of a Vista Licence !

Vista COA purchasers are the owners of a Vista licence, that is not in dispute. Do you accept as accurate, MS claiming all owners of Vista licences as actual users? I have a carton full to the brim with unopened, unused, Vista licences, does that qualify me as a volume Vista user?


Quoting Me In Oz:
I see no problem in this claim.

Then you have entirely misread the the situation.


Quoting Me In Oz:
If you put a Holden motor in a Ford you bought ..

If you put a sand-shoe in a teapot it would also serve no purpose to this argument. Your flawed automotive analogy serves no purpose, neither does it have any relationship to this topic.


Quoting Me In Oz:
would sony consider it as not a PS3 sale ?

You fanciful PS3 analogy is also full of holes, and you fail to recognise the distinction between sales and usage. In your hypothetical the PS3 would still be in use regardless of which operating system had been pressed into operation.
Back to the reality of new PC sales, how can you claim an unopened unused vista disk as being used or even a Vista sale, by anything other than a distorted technicality?
More importantly if XP licences had not been prematurely withdrawn from sale, would claimed Vista sales and usage figures not be far more accurate?

Me In Oz (Advanced Forumologist):

Quoting Raindog:
how can you claim an unopened unused vista disk as being used or even a Vista sale
I didn't claim this at all !
I said ... "purchaser and owner of a Vista licence"
MS counts it as a sale. They don't give a stuff what you do with it !

Your constant miscomprehension of what is posted is becoming pretty tiresome and you're not even funny anymore.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Me In Oz:
Your constant miscomprehension of what is posted is becoming pretty tiresome and you're not even funny anymore.

Like shooting rabbits when I was young. They are just so stupid that the hundreth one shot just isn't fun any more :)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting Me In Oz:
I didn't claim this at all !

You attempts to validate MS claims have an equivalence to those same claims being yours.


Quoting Me In Oz:
I said ... "purchaser and owner of a Vista licence"

Which brings us back the point of the article and statements by HP. For MS to claim that Vista Sales equate to Vista usage is a nonsense. Youre defence of such hollow claims exposes you to ridicule.


Quoting Me In Oz:
Your constant miscomprehension

I am not the one who is unable to cleary see the distinction between sales and usage?


Quoting Me In Oz:
is becoming pretty tiresome

What's this? losing the strength in your convictions? What is really tiresome is the unsubstantiated fan-boy interjections and feable attempts to bully others.


Quoting Me In Oz:
and you're not even funny anymore

I have never contributed for your amusement, I am sure you are now well aware of your options.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
exposes you to ridicule.

Hmmmmm ! I don't see Me in Oz being ridiculed by anyone. On the other hand Raindog has plenty against his name :D

Quoting Raindog:
What's this? losing the strength in your convictions?

Never ! He's has millions of supporters :)

Quoting Raindog:
attempts to bully others.
Mirror time Raindog !

Quoting Raindog:
I have never contributed for your amusement
Oh ! But you have LOL

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Hmmmmm ! I don't see Me in Oz being ridiculed by anyone.


Your blinkered observations have been noted many times.

Quoting CBR1100XX:
On the other hand Raindog has plenty against his name

and none of it has stuck. The noisy chants of fan-boys are hardly ridicule.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Never ! He's has millions of supporters :)

Millions? How have you equated the figure of millions? Appears this is just another of your hollow unsubstantiated and easily dis-proven claims.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
Quoting Raindog:
attempts to bully others.
Mirror time Raindog !

So there is one of me and millions of you and I'm the bully, that would make you relatively inconsequential as individuals, now wouldn't it.




Quoting CBR1100XX:
Quoting Raindog:
I have never contributed for your amusement
Oh ! But you have LOL

Again you miscomprehended. You may well have been amused that is besides the point. You may well be amused by your own navel but that is in no way the reason for you having one.

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Quoting Raindog:
So there is one of me and millions of you

Finally ! The epiphany of how truly one-eyed you really are !

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Finally !

Finally what? There is nothing final about it, your stupidity appears to know no bounds.


Quoting CBR1100XX:
The epiphany of

epiphany def: The word epiphany means a manifestation, usually of divine power. Thus the actual appearance of God

You may consider me as god like but as usual you would be mistaken or misinformed.



Quoting CBR1100XX:
how truly one-eyed you really are

curious given I haven presented you with numerous opportunities to validate your stance and to validate alternative points of view. In assuming the fan-boy label, are you not also assuming your own form of myopia.

Your Average Joe (Senior member):

Quoting Raindog:
epiphany def: The word epiphany means a manifestation, usually of divine power. Thus the actual appearance of God

CBR1100XX used it as a metaphor.
It's your dimwittedness that knows no bounds !

Thogek (New user):

Ah, the importance of understanding the underlying definitions behind any cited statistic...

CBR1100XX (Advanced member):

Agreed !
Stats can be made to validate any argument and I certainly take anything said by megacorporations with a grain of salt (Yes ! Even Microsoft)

Raindog (Senior Forumologist):

Quoting CBR1100XX:
Stats can be made to validate any argument and I certainly take anything said by megacorporations with a grain of salt

So what are you saying?
You ignore anything said by large companies?
You selectively ignore anything said by large companies if it supports your current stance?

How does your statement relate to the positions held by either HP or Microsoft?

Do you have any reasons for refusing to accepts statements by HP, Dell and others that sales of PCs, destined to run XP for their working life, are being counted by Microsoft as Vista sales?

Are these the figures you have chosen to accept with a grain of salt? What other figures do you not accept?